I was going to post this as a comment, but it was in an anarchism community, and I figured some sections of it might be unacceptable there. Hence, new post.
Here’s a guideline of how to interact with cops. There are more or less three modes, depending on your read of the situation. Cops are not always the enemy or the maniacal whole-job-is-making-evil thugs that Lemmy sometimes makes them out to be. It really is bad for people to get mugged or their cars broken into, and they’re the solution our society has come up with to minimize the amount of it that happens. It’s not always a bad thing.
If you find yourself talking to the cops, there are more or less three ways:
- They’re there to solve a real problem. Someone’s car got broken into, someone got beat up. Just talk with them. Tell them what you know, help them figure out the situation. In almost all of the US, their effect on the problem will be positive, and it’ll be a lot more positive if they have a good grasp of what happened. If, in your opinion, the person they’re trying to catch really did do something that warrants a law enforcement response, then give them a hand. Use your judgement as to whether that’s warranted of course, and your impression of the justice level in your local area, since it varies quite a lot in the US.
- They’re there for you. Shut the fuck up. Don’t say a goddamned word. It doesn’t even matter if you didn’t do it. Don’t explain. Shut the fuck up. Be polite, obey lawful orders, definitely don’t fight them or you’ll get a felony and might also get injured or worse, but tell them that if you’re suspected of a crime, then you’d like to talk to a lawyer, and you have nothing else to say. And then, shut the fuck up and cooperate. Maybe you want to go as far as “Were you shoplifting?” “What? No. That wasn’t me, man.” But any further explanation than that, just leave it alone. Definitely don’t make something up on the spot, to make yourself sound innocent, if you did do it. For the love of God, don’t do that.
- They’re there for someone who didn’t do anything wrong. The reason for this post is, anything and everything with ICE and immigration falls into this category. Some things with local cops will, also. Just be unhelpful and simple. No, I didn’t see anything. I don’t know. I’m not sure. Be vague. Don’t get creative, keep it simple, don’t refuse to give your ID or otherwise antagonize them or commit minor crimes of obstruction, but just do your best imitation of someone who just fell from the sky. “So you’ve NEVER MET your neighbor. Your neighbor across the hall.” “Nope.” “Are you sure?” “Yeah, I don’t know.” “I mean, she gave us your name, she said she’d talked to you.” “I don’t know, I don’t remember that.” Don’t embellish. Don’t explain why. Just calmly let the silence linger and the pressure build up, without adding extra words.
Like I said, everything with ICE or other immigration authorities falls into the third category. No exceptions. Everything. The same applies with any type of federal law enforcement, I suspect, for the next few years.
How much bootlicking and privilege do I have to have for these to work? If they come up to me and arrest me for existing, is that mean I did something wrong? What happens when they murder unarmed people for existing? Did they just not talk right?
Fuck this idiot never talk to cops about anything, learn your rights. Don’t ever fucking trust the fascist.
Remember kids cops are food not friends.
This is long but worth the watch. It is a lawyer and a police officer giving specific details on why you should never talk to the police.
Yeah, I’ve seen this before. It was also posted and discussed below. It covers scenario number 2 in quite a lot of detail, which I think is a really good thing and good advice, yes.
Man this thread is full of people asking to get jerked around by the cops. “AM I bEiNg DetaIneD?!” Well, you definitely upped your chances.
Here’s a life lesson: don’t act like a fuckwad to anybody and your outcomes are likely to be better across the board.
This is mostly a copy-paste from my comment in another post, but:
Dont literally not talk to the police.
Example: If you are at a car crash, and you literally remain silent and don’t verbally deny fault, the cops will assume its your fault (since the other driver will obviously deny fault) and the police report is say “[Your name] is at fault”, and that’s gonna fuck up the insurance claims. Always deny fault (but don’t make up false statements in the process of doing so).
Also, if you are in the US, and is a suspect of an alleged crime, don’t actually literally remain completely silent. You have to verbally invoke your 5th amendment rights to protect against court shenanigans.
Excerpt from wikipedia:
In June 2010, the Supreme Court ruled in Berghuis v. Thompkins that a criminal suspect must now invoke the right to remain silent unambiguously. Unless and until the suspect actually states that he is relying on that right, police may continue to interact with (or question) him, and any voluntary statement he makes can be used in court. The mere act of remaining silent is, on its own, insufficient to imply the suspect has invoked those rights. Furthermore, a voluntary reply, even after lengthy silence, can be construed as implying a waiver. The new rule will defer to police in cases where the suspect fails to assert the right to remain silent. This standard was extended in Salinas v. Texas in 2013 to cases where individuals not in custody who volunteer to answer officers’ questions and who are not told their Miranda rights. The Court stated that there was no “ritualistic formula” necessary to assert this right, but that a person could not do so “by simply standing mute”.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Explicit_invocation
Just say a simple phrase such as “I hereby invoke my 5th amendment right to silence, and I want to talk to a lawyer”. Or if not in the US, just leave out the “5th amendment” part.
(also, might be a good idea to have a few phone numbers of criminal defence attorneys memorized)
Good advice. Think about the situation and get a feel for what’s going on, instead of automatically trusting or hating cops. It really isn’t smart to treat real life like a meme.
It really isn’t. I’ve seen some bodycam videos of people who got themselves in a significant amount of trouble that they didn’t need to be in, because they were aggressively ignorantly hostile to cops who were just showing up for some straightforward reason and trying to do their jobs.
I’ve seen those videos too, and I don’t know what you meant by “it really isn’t” but I wouldn’t advise being aggressively ignorantly hostile to cops no matter what they’re doing. If you’re a victim of police abuse, they have all the power in that moment and being belligerent will not help you. It’s not a matter of principle, it’s a matter of surviving that situation so you can fight it in court where you’ll have a better (i.e. nonzero) chance.
Oh, no, I was agreeing with you, sorry. What I meant was “It really isn’t smart to treat real life like a meme.”
LOL sorry, lazy me didn’t hit the link button and see what it was about, even though I really like how well that lemmy feature works.
It’s all good, I think it’s on me. It would have been hard to interpret the first few words of my message as any way but hostile, I think.
Rule 1 : Don’t
Rule 2 : Am I being detained?
Rule 3 : I will not answer any questions without my lawyer present.
Be as advised, in the US, if you are driving your car, you are required to identify yourself to an officer, along with providing proof of registration and insurance. Remember, you can beat the ticket, but you can’t beat the ride.
- Resume consumption of your succulent Chinese meal
what does “can’t beat the ride” mean in this context?
Basically, if the police are going to grab you, it’s best not to resist. Exercise your rights in court, not on the pavement.
Take the ticket so you don’t get arrested is how I interpreted it.
Also, never answer the question, “Do you know why I pulled you over?” with anything that sounds like an admission. They’re fishing and looking to have you confess to a traffic violation.
The honest answer is “No, I’m not sure why you pulled me over,” because it’s true. There are a million motivations they might have come up with to pull you over, and you’re neither psychic or telepathic.
Something for everyone: keep your license and registration/insurance in your sun visor, keep a state ID on you for ID purposes. Also keep your hands on the wheel until they are at the window. That and keeping the information in the sun visor ensure that your hands are in plain view the entire time. You don’t have to suddenly start moving and digging around in a dark compartment. Police officers are trained to keep their eyes on your hands and if they can’t see your hands they get nervous and that’s when bad police officers start pulling guns and shooting people. Sounds stupid but it’s what they’re trained to do. Following this simple and straightforward advice will immediately de-escalate and improve your interaction with anybody pulling you over. I’ve actually had officers mention it after a stop and thank me for keeping my hands in plain view etc. The vast majority are just trying to do their job, and this advice makes it easier for them, makes them less fearful, makes them less prone to do something stupid.
I actually got that advice in a very nice concealed carry class I went to. A large portion of the multi-day class went over interactions with law enforcements what to do what not to do etc.
This is incredibly solid advice. Whether you’re dealing with a perfectly reasonable police officer, or Shooty McSettlementByTheCity, it will be to your benefit to be cool with them and respect their desire to get through the interaction smoothly, and not have to be nervous about what you’re doing.
I can summarize three of my last four encounters with law enforcement thusly:
1: “Hey stay where you are” “Sure” (talks to me briefly, gets on his radio, verifies I’m not the guy, okay cool you’re free to go)
2 and 3: I actually was guilty of something minor, and the cop knew it, but because I was aboveboard with him and didn’t make bullshit when I could have, he went pretty much to the limit of his ability to not get me in trouble for it. THIS IS NOT TO SAY YOU SHOULD BE HONEST WITH THE COPS. Just don’t be a dick and make everyone’s day more difficult, is what I’m saying.
Also, be white. It helps a lot.
Hm. In the US, that would be alright except when he refused to tell them who he was. That can get you arrested. I get how “I don’t answer questions” is good just because it’s specific enough that you can stick to it when shit’s getting a little bit real, but it also doesn’t really apply to all questions or all situations.
Here’s a defense law office giving their abbreviated take on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqo5RYOp4nQ
They have a longer one, where they told a story of an illegal dispensary that got raided. Two employees tried to explain their way out of it. A third employee just shut the fuck up. The first two got charges, because their attempt to talk their way out of it confirmed that they were working there as employees. The third guy, nobody could prove a damn thing about why he was there. Was he a customer? An employee? Had he wandered in to use the bathroom? Nobody knows. And so, he was free to wander on his merry way, while the other two had some minor but not real enjoyable charges to deal with.
Shut the fuck up.
You are not required to identify yourself if you are not operating a motor vehicle (in which case you must supply your license if asked) and you have not been accused of any specific crime. “Being suspicious” or “fitting a description” or “we got a call” is not a specific crime. If there is not reasonable suspicion that you were the one who committed an articulable crime, you don’t have to provide your name.
Read up on your state’s laws. If your state is not a “stop and identify” state you don’t even have to identify yourself if you have been accused of a crime. That’s for the police to figure out themselves if they care so damn much. You invoke the 5th.
In this guy’s case (I don’t know what to make of the accents or the checkboard hats or the Astra, so I suspect this is not meant to be happening in the USA, but whatever) he is on his own property, has not been shown a warrant, and has not been accused of a crime. He doesn’t have to state anything. If he is not required to interact with these police at all. He’s not even obligated to open the door. If these cops had a single pinky toe to stand on, they’d have shown up with a warrant.
You are not required to identify yourself if you are not operating a motor vehicle (in which case you must supply your license if asked) and you have not been accused of any specific crime. “Being suspicious” or “fitting a description” or “we got a call” is not a specific crime. If there is not reasonable suspicion that you were the one who committed an articulable crime, you don’t have to provide your name.
This is completely accurate. I should have said, it’s a little bit unclear from the video, but it sounds like they suspect Ray Whoever of a crime, which is why I was saying it that way. But if he was just some random person, he’d be completely within his rights to refuse to ID himself, which is a very important clarification.
This is a good overview:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
I didn’t even know that there were states which were not “stop and identify” states, I just learned something today. I still don’t completely get it… the article says that, in practice, you can be arrested for obstruction anyway if you don’t identify yourself, even without the statute, or maybe you can’t. It says the California ACLU recommends that people identify themselves regardless, since they may be arrested for it, even though the arrest will be illegal.
In the US, that would be alright except when he refused to tell them who he was.
More generally, this depends heavily on the details of the interaction, and the US state where the interaction was taking place.
In the “I don’t answer questions” clip, if it were in the US, the police probably did have enough to arrest the guy, however “The court also held that the Fifth Amendment could allow a suspect to refuse to give the suspect’s name if he or she articulated a reasonable belief that giving the name could be incriminating.” Since the officers were asking for a specifically named person, it might be within the guy’s 5th Amendment rights to refuse to identify himself. Would his not identifying himself as the person they were looking for make it so they couldn’t (shouldn’t) arrest him? Possibly, since they’re looking for someone with a specific name, and they don’t know that that guy is named that.
Of course, you might beat the rap, but you can’t beat the ride.
“The court also held that the Fifth Amendment could allow a suspect to refuse to give the suspect’s name if he or she articulated a reasonable belief that giving the name could be incriminating.” Since the officers were asking for a specifically named person, it might be within the guy’s 5th Amendment rights to refuse to identify himself. Would his not identifying himself as the person they were looking for make it so they couldn’t (shouldn’t) arrest him? Possibly, since they’re looking for someone with a specific name
This is some of the worst and wrongest legal advice I have ever heard. No, that’s not how it works.
There are situations where you don’t have to identify yourself. If you’re just standing around, and they’re curious, then you can tell them to get lost and they can’t have your ID. However, if the cops have a reason to suspect you specifically of a crime, even a slight suspicion, then you have to identify yourself, in all 50 states. You will not only get the ride, you will get misdemeanor charges.
This is what SCOTUS found:
“The court also held that the Fifth Amendment could allow a suspect to refuse to give the suspect’s name if he or she articulated a reasonable belief that giving the name could be incriminating.”
In the situation that played out in the clip, had that been in the US,
… it might be within the guy’s 5th Amendment rights to refuse to identify himself.
The court upheld Hiibel’s conviction. The part you’re quoting is in the part where they left open the possibility that there could be some crazy type of circumstances where revealing your name could, itself, form a link in a chain of evidence that the cops needed in order to convict you of some other different crime.
There is not, that I know of, any person ever in the United States who has ever been found innocent of failure to ID, or had their conviction overturned for some other crime or something, under the logic you’re saying. It was just a side note while they convicted the guy. Do you know of someone who’s ever gotten off due to this logic?
I said “might.” Not “would.”
You also said, “Since the officers were asking for a specifically named person, it might be within the guy’s 5th Amendment rights to refuse to identify himself. Would his not identifying himself as the person they were looking for make it so they couldn’t (shouldn’t) arrest him? Possibly.”
That “possibly” should have been written as “Absolutely the fuck not, and it would in all likelihood get him additional charges on top of what they were already arresting him for.” That’s why I said it was terrible advice.
sticking to “am i being detained” and “lawyer” works wonders got out a fucked situation with the first. Genuinely the biggest gang in the US, treat them as such
Why not post to a cop forum “how to deal with the people you have to deal with.” ?
Because most of us haven’t taken classes about the book “On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society” while most US cops have.
Why not post to a cop forum “how to deal with the people you have to deal with.” ?
I think the George Floyd protests accomplished a pretty large amount of this. Prior to about 2014, the state of policing in the US had some absolutely fatal flaws. No pun intended. Now, training on use of force is totally different, bodycams are pretty much universal, a lot of stuff has changed.
There’s actually still more that is needed, and a lot in our criminal justice system that still needs improvement, but the cops’ part of the equation has actually had some of the most attention to it recently, so it’s in the best shape, relatively speaking. The court system and the prisons are where a lot of attention needs to go, now.
most US cops have
This is absolutely false. Tell me which classes, and what their enrollment numbers are. There are a little over a million cops in the US.
oh right, of course. this guide is for interacting with US police. as if the rest of the world doesn’t exist and we should all assume that everything posted to the internet applies specifically to US citizens. cool thanks
Fixed the title for you, my apologies.
Maybe you want to go as far as “Were you shoplifting?” “What? No. That wasn’t me, man.” … do your best imitation of someone who just fell from the sky. “So you’ve NEVER MET your neighbor. Your neighbor across the hall.” “Nope.” “Are you sure?” “Yeah, I don’t know.”
Wrong.
Don’t tell the cops “I don’t know” or “I didn’t see anything,” or anything of that ilk. Don’t try to plead innocence. Don’t try to use logic. It will only ever work against you, and it will never work in your favor. Always always always always.
Just tell them you exercise your right to be silent. Over and over again, if necessary. That is all you say. Be a broken record. There is no situation where you are actually obligated (in the US) to answer any type of questions for any type of law enforcement, at any time, for any reason, ever. That’s all you need to tell them. You don’t answer questions. You don’t answer why you don’t answer questions.
This is because you can also be prosecuted for lying to them, and their grounds for accusing you of lying can be pretty shaky but you still might get convicted. You can’t be prosecuted for saying nothing.
Note that this will not prevent them from lying to you, which is legal, and making spurious threats of arrest or similar to attempt to intimidate you into complying. Be aware that this is automatically bullshit. At worst the can hold you for up to 48 hours (-ish, state laws vary on that point somewhat) without charging you with anything and even if they do, you still don’t have to say anything to them.
If this happens, lawyer up immediately. You can sue them afterwards if it comes about that they violated any of your civil rights in the process.
In light of all of the above, I don’t deal with the police at all.
Name and if necessary, driver’s license. That’s it. That’s all I’m legally obligated to provide in my state, and even then only in specific circumstances. If they’re on my actual property they can pack sand; No warrant, interaction. I won’t talk to them, I won’t even answer the door. If they want to try to bust in illegally, what happens after that is on them.
I will further never, ever call the police for any reason. They simply can’t be trusted. If I have a problem with someone or something, I will solve it myself. The cops in my area have near as makes no difference to a 0% clearance rate for nuisance crimes, assault/battery, thefts, and burglaries anyway. Unless you need a report for insurance purposes it’s useless, and at that rate I’ll have my attorney call them on my behalf. They are not in the business of helping you. So don’t even expect that they will.
TL;DR: Don’t talk to the police.
usa sounds like a nightmare
This is correct answer, never speak to the police. They can and will use anything you say and try to make you guilty of SOMETHING.
…And even if you are not the perpetrator, that doesn’t matter. The police are pressured to arrest somebody. At the end of the day it really doesn’t matter to them who it is, and the perp got a way while in the meantime you’re standing right here. It’s much easier to harass you.
Do you have warrants? Are you sure? Do you have parking tickets? Is your name similar to someone else they want for something else? Do they smell weed? Are you black? Etc., etc., etc.
It’s not worth it. Don’t interact.
And even if you are not the perpetrator, that doesn’t matter. The police are pressured to arrest somebody.
This part, I definitely know is wrong. Some cops do have a particular stick up their ass about liking to arrest people for marginal reasons. The majority of cops, in any given interaction, dislike arresting people, because it’s paperwork, and they get paid the same either way. They’re not looking to arrest some random person if they can’t find the actual perpetrator. With very rare and corrupt exceptions, it’ll wind up being a massive waste of resources when they have to be released, or go to trial and get off because there is literally 0 evidence, and if someone shows a consistent pattern of that, it’ll be a problem.
Is your name similar to someone else they want for something else?
I used to think that you lived in a part of the US where the cops are bad, and we mostly just have a difference of experience. That still might be true, but I more strongly suspect now that you’re basing this on not much more than your particular set of prejudice.
basing this on not much more than your particular set of prejudice.
Wow, just like the police! What a coincidence.
Wrong.
Everyone thinks they have rights until there’s a gun in their face.
When the fascists knock on your door you do what you must to survive and never throw anyone else under the bus.
In that scenario, my people have an ancient and traditional saying:
It is on, son.
You don’t actually have the right to remain silent as pertains to other people’s crimes. You could be compelled to testify, if it comes to that, and in theory you could be prosecuted if you lie, although it’s very unlikely to happen.
There are situations where what you’re saying is accurate: Every single cop who might answer the call for service is the enemy, or you might get a really bad outcome for “snitching,” or simply stonewalling with mild hostility is better for some reason than “I don’t know her.” My advice was general advice for most of the US, not applicable to every situation someone might find themselves in.
Compelled to testify in court is very different from talking to the police at your door.
There is no US law requiring you to talk to cops. About crimes you might have committed or witnessed. You could be forced to testify in court but never to a police officer.
Completely correct. I was mostly just responding to the use of the phrase “right to remain silent” about someone else’s crimes. Using legal terminology wrongly with the cops is a bad idea.
You can be subpoenaed to testify in court. You cannot be compelled to talk to the police.
Correct. I was mostly responding to your use of “right to remain silent” when asked about your neighbors. It just doesn’t work that way. You could go with “I don’t want to tell you” or “I don’t have to tell you,” but if you had to pick one general answer to recommend, I’m a lot more comfortable going with “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember” instead of those options.
This is false
“What day is it? IT’S SHUT THE FUCK UP FRIDAY!”
It is always Friday.
I am so happy to see this. I posted one of the videos below.
I agree with this. In the US you can only be compelled to answer questions if you are given immunity, which will almost never happen.
The third option is our German chancellor (Olaf Scholz). “I dont know where these Millions went.” “I don’t remember anything about that incident.” “I don’t recall sending or receiving these messages.” “That evidence? No I don’t remember this and I refuse to talk about it” If you ask any uncomfortable questions about corruption he just stays silent.
Or Senator Mitch McConnell.
“I do not recaaawwwwwwlllllll”
This is bad advice. In all cases, dont talk to them.
“Hey, you reported a home intrusion?”
“I wont say anything without a lawyer present.”
Yep, calling the cops is a good way to get murdered. Better not to call them
In most situations, Honestly just easier to file the report at the station.
Neighbor’s car got broken into. Called the cops and for some reason, THREE cops went door to door demanding home owners hand over video of their door cams?
I went to yell at my neighbor who apologized like crazy, saying he just asked them to file a report, not play Bad Boys action-hero.
In the USA your advice is bad advice. You are in some situations obligated to answer questions. “Im not sure” and “I don’t know/recall” are perfectly valid answers
Those answers can be used to convict you. Don’t say anything!
