• disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    One can argue that agnosticism is more scientific in that what cannot be verified, however improbable, remains possible.

    What set the large masses in motion to collide in the Big Bang? What created that matter to begin with? There’s still room for the possibility of interference-based creation without contradicting modern science.

    • aleph@lemm.ee
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      6 months ago

      I agree with your second paragraph but take issue with your first.

      Atheism is not the belief that God categorically does not exist; it’s the position that there is insufficient evidence to conclude that God exists, and that therefore there is no reason to believe in him/her/it. It’s a subtle but important distinction because the first is not logically consistent whereas the latter is.

      Agnosticism, on the other hand, tends to either be the view that the likelihood of God existing is more or less equal to that of God not existing, or the view that we will probably never know so we cannot come down on one side or the other.

      • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Technically speaking, there are gnostic atheists and agnostic atheists. Someone who calls themself agnostic believes in the possibility of a god. Self-identified atheists are typically gnostic atheists who believe with certainty that there is no god. A-theist means they denounce the existence of theism, or god. They could also just be agnostic, and unaware of the difference in terminology.

        There are many gnostic atheists commenting on this post with the “burden of proof” argument, and likening god to an invisible unicorn. They are quite confident in non-existence.

        https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/

        • aleph@lemm.ee
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          6 months ago

          Gnostic atheists are only a thing on paper; I’ve never met or heard of another atheist who ascribes to this view. As the link you provided states, this academic definition of atheism is not one ascribed to by the vast majority of self-described atheists.

          Or, to quote the American Atheists organization:

          Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Source

          On this basis, any invisible unicorn/intergalactic teapot/flying spaghetti monster argument that invokes “burden of proof” is not an gnostic atheist position. The argument is based on the idea that until evidence for an invisible unicorn exists, there is no reason for it to have any bearing on our behavior.

          This is different from saying that because no evidence of an invisible unicorn exists, that we must conclude that it categorically does not exist. You cannot logically prove the non-existence of a non-existent entity.

          • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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            6 months ago

            Then why use the argument against another person’s beliefs if not to discredit them and convince them their beliefs are impossible? No one here is trying to convince others that “their god” is correct, so it’s clearly not in defense.

            That’s the behavior of someone who is trying to convince another of non-existence, therefore, it is safe to consider them gnostic atheists.

            For example

            • aleph@lemm.ee
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              6 months ago

              It’s not so much saying that someone’s religious beliefs are logically impossible, more highly unlikely. When I typically see this rhetoric, it’s generally along the lines of “how on Earth did you weigh up all the evidence (or lack thereof) and come to the conclusion that God exists”, or more impolite words to that effect.

              I personally don’t browbeat the religious, so I’m not condoning it, but that’s why this line of argument generally isn’t gnostic atheism.

              If, on the other hand, someone is actually saying that the existence of God is impossible, a priori, then they just haven’t thought things through.

              • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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                6 months ago

                Thank you for your consideration to the beliefs of others. You’re more of an exception to atheists than you may know. You should read some of the other atheists’ comments on this post. They’re very quick to condemn the possible existence of god. It’s this type of arrogance that caused Einstein to liken them to religious zealots, and why he referred to himself as an agnostic.