This is an utterly ridiculous straw man. Literally worthy of ridicule. These are bad arguments and you should be ashamed to have made them.
Yeah, let me just page up all the trans
and feminist academics writing on stigma theory as it relates to misogyny and transmisogyny and let them know that they are wrong, that cis men are never afraid of being tainted by an association with women or queer people
Or maybe you’re just wrong and defensive, which is 1000 times worse than just being wrong and learning from being wrong, which is a normal human thing.
When your online ego isn’t on the line I’d suggest reading Sexed Up by Julie Serano.
Well read on transmisogyny? How do you want me to point out to you that you’re incorrect? Like, earnestly, what is the right way to point out to someone that they’re being bigoted when they don’t know they’re being bigoted?
I know more on this than you
on a personal level- plenty of men hit on me and then when I speak in my non-passing voice to let them know I’m a lesbian react with disgust. Men who say they’d never be attracted to a trans woman have had no problem aggressively hitting on me
On an academic level- I’ve read a lot of feminist works on misogyny, and works on how transmisogyny operates.
You haven’t done enough study on the topic to have an opinion that you should personally stand by.
Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn’t that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak?
What do you mean by my preferences? I am annoyed when people spout bullshit that they don’t understand is bullshit and then get defensive when you tell them they’re wrong, stop playing the victim.
Could you possibly be any more egotistical? You are really full of yourself.
I understand completely that I am a cis man and that my sexual preference is for cis women. Why are you trying to force your beliefs down my throat? What defect of personality is it that makes you think that you should decide what I’m allowed to like?
I’m not being defensive. I don’t give the first fuck what you think I should like. I’m just trying to help you to understand how utterly toxic you are.
Yeah, I’m the egotistical one, not the cis guy trying to explain why it isn’t actually transmisogyny to a trans woman who has studied and experienced this specific form of transmisogyny.
You aren’t some static being where people attempting to change your mind about something you haven’t investigated is some violation. If that is what it feels like to you maybe you need to do some self reflection, because what I am describing to you is literally just the process of learning.
Edit: also men like you love to force your preference on me. Do you know how many times I’ve been cornered (because some men like to do that when hitting on someone) and had to be there for a man’s significant emotional event after realizing he was attracted to a trans woman? This is me being proactive so some trans woman doesn’t have to deal with your freak out if you end up hitting on a trans woman.
I’ve seen you around before and know you’re acting in good faith, and I believe you’re an ally, or at least a potential ally, to the trans community.
I’m chiming in here because I replied to OurToothbrush earlier to give her a cis-het male ally’s perspective, and suggest that she might have more success with a less confrontational strategy.
She suggested I might have better luck explaining her objection to you, or at least that she would appreciate me trying to help you understand her point.
Both your comments are coming fast and furious so I’m trying to respond to your latest.
So here goes:
Your basic point was that you’re exclusively interested in cis-women, and that this is a preference you have, everyone is entitled to preferences so what’s the big deal. It doesn’t mean you’re not an ally.
Life is complex. Just as there’s nobody that’s purely “racially white” (race isn’t real, but that’s beside the point, or maybe it is the point…), there’s nobody that’s purely female or male. Obviously most people’s bodies develop either testicles or ovaries not both, but: there is a sizable portion of the population where it’s not so clear cut. Ultimately: Every person has mutations in their DNA that skew their body towards and away from what’s considered masculine/feminine.
While sexual orientation towards masculine/feminine people doesn’t seem to be strongly influenced by culture (ie I don’t think you can raise a kid to be gay), what a person perceives to be masculine/feminine/trans IS strongly a product of their culture and conditioning.
Viewing sexuality and gender through the framework I laid out above and considering her experiences may help you understand why OurToothbrush sees transphobia where you see sexual preference.
OurToothbrush’s experience seems to be that lots of ‘cis-het-men’ say they aren’t attracted to trans-women, but are in fact attracted to trans-women like her. When they discover that she is a trans-woman they have very negative reactions. Since the (former) suitors were attracted to her until they guessed she was assigned male at birth, but before they had learned the status of her genitalia, how can she conclude anything other than transphobia? Do you see how their reaction is basically the same as your statement?
I pointed out to her that transphobia and homophobia are beaten into men/boys and if they have a negative reaction to learning that a women that they’re attracted to was assigned male at birth, it doesn’t mean they aren’t allies, just that they haven’t unlearned that phobic conditioning. It’s a type of internalized latent transphobia that has infected me too. I don’t dwell on it because as a person in a committed monogamous relationship for over half of my life, it is unlikely to matter, and I suspect it would be a monumental undertaking to unlearn. The effort is better spent healing rifts between allies.
Can you understand why when someone says “I’m exclusively interested in cis-women” a person with OurToothbrush’s experiences might hear “trans-women are gross”.
Tldr; I think I see where you’re both coming from. We cis-het-men are notoriously fragile, especially when our allyship is questioned. I think it will be more effective for people trying to point out people’s latent transphobia to take an educational/ collaborative tone at first, and it’s something I’m going to try to do a better job of helping people understand.
Honestly, thank you two for having this spat so that I could map it out in my head better, I’m not sure I’ve done the best job typing it out though. You’re both welcome to tell me to fuck off.
Are lesbians bad because they don’t want to suck cock
I know plenty of cis and trans lesbians who love to suck cock. Just not men’s cocks.
And I am equally suspicious of lesbians who are like “trans men are an exception” because they generally either treat trans men like shit or realize they’re bi but only interested in dating and fucking other queer folks.
Yes, it is you who is egotistical because you believe that you should be able to dictate to me what I should like.
Not dictating to you what you should like, pointing out that what you’re saying doesn’t actually make sense when it comes to interacting with women in real life and not just looking up porn categories.
Yeah, let me just page up all the trans and feminist academics writing on stigma theory as it relates to misogyny and transmisogyny and let them know that they are wrong, that cis men are never afraid of being tainted by an association with women or queer people
Or maybe you’re just wrong and defensive, which is 1000 times worse than just being wrong and learning from being wrong, which is a normal human thing.
When your online ego isn’t on the line I’d suggest reading Sexed Up by Julie Serano.
You have become what you hate.
Well read on transmisogyny? How do you want me to point out to you that you’re incorrect? Like, earnestly, what is the right way to point out to someone that they’re being bigoted when they don’t know they’re being bigoted?
I know more on this than you
on a personal level- plenty of men hit on me and then when I speak in my non-passing voice to let them know I’m a lesbian react with disgust. Men who say they’d never be attracted to a trans woman have had no problem aggressively hitting on me
On an academic level- I’ve read a lot of feminist works on misogyny, and works on how transmisogyny operates.
You haven’t done enough study on the topic to have an opinion that you should personally stand by.
I said nothing about forcing my preferences on you but you’re working VERY hard to force your preferences on me.
That says a LOT more about you than it does about me.
What do you mean by my preferences? I am annoyed when people spout bullshit that they don’t understand is bullshit and then get defensive when you tell them they’re wrong, stop playing the victim.
Could you possibly be any more egotistical? You are really full of yourself.
I understand completely that I am a cis man and that my sexual preference is for cis women. Why are you trying to force your beliefs down my throat? What defect of personality is it that makes you think that you should decide what I’m allowed to like?
I’m not being defensive. I don’t give the first fuck what you think I should like. I’m just trying to help you to understand how utterly toxic you are.
Yeah, I’m the egotistical one, not the cis guy trying to explain why it isn’t actually transmisogyny to a trans woman who has studied and experienced this specific form of transmisogyny.
You aren’t some static being where people attempting to change your mind about something you haven’t investigated is some violation. If that is what it feels like to you maybe you need to do some self reflection, because what I am describing to you is literally just the process of learning.
Edit: also men like you love to force your preference on me. Do you know how many times I’ve been cornered (because some men like to do that when hitting on someone) and had to be there for a man’s significant emotional event after realizing he was attracted to a trans woman? This is me being proactive so some trans woman doesn’t have to deal with your freak out if you end up hitting on a trans woman.
Are lesbians bad because they don’t want to suck cocks or is it just me because I’m cis and interested in cis women?
Yes, it is you who is egotistical because you believe that you should be able to dictate to me what I should like.
Hey MapleEngineer,
I’ve seen you around before and know you’re acting in good faith, and I believe you’re an ally, or at least a potential ally, to the trans community.
I’m chiming in here because I replied to OurToothbrush earlier to give her a cis-het male ally’s perspective, and suggest that she might have more success with a less confrontational strategy.
She suggested I might have better luck explaining her objection to you, or at least that she would appreciate me trying to help you understand her point.
Both your comments are coming fast and furious so I’m trying to respond to your latest.
So here goes:
Your basic point was that you’re exclusively interested in cis-women, and that this is a preference you have, everyone is entitled to preferences so what’s the big deal. It doesn’t mean you’re not an ally.
Life is complex. Just as there’s nobody that’s purely “racially white” (race isn’t real, but that’s beside the point, or maybe it is the point…), there’s nobody that’s purely female or male. Obviously most people’s bodies develop either testicles or ovaries not both, but: there is a sizable portion of the population where it’s not so clear cut. Ultimately: Every person has mutations in their DNA that skew their body towards and away from what’s considered masculine/feminine.
While sexual orientation towards masculine/feminine people doesn’t seem to be strongly influenced by culture (ie I don’t think you can raise a kid to be gay), what a person perceives to be masculine/feminine/trans IS strongly a product of their culture and conditioning.
Viewing sexuality and gender through the framework I laid out above and considering her experiences may help you understand why OurToothbrush sees transphobia where you see sexual preference.
OurToothbrush’s experience seems to be that lots of ‘cis-het-men’ say they aren’t attracted to trans-women, but are in fact attracted to trans-women like her. When they discover that she is a trans-woman they have very negative reactions. Since the (former) suitors were attracted to her until they guessed she was assigned male at birth, but before they had learned the status of her genitalia, how can she conclude anything other than transphobia? Do you see how their reaction is basically the same as your statement?
I pointed out to her that transphobia and homophobia are beaten into men/boys and if they have a negative reaction to learning that a women that they’re attracted to was assigned male at birth, it doesn’t mean they aren’t allies, just that they haven’t unlearned that phobic conditioning. It’s a type of internalized latent transphobia that has infected me too. I don’t dwell on it because as a person in a committed monogamous relationship for over half of my life, it is unlikely to matter, and I suspect it would be a monumental undertaking to unlearn. The effort is better spent healing rifts between allies.
Can you understand why when someone says “I’m exclusively interested in cis-women” a person with OurToothbrush’s experiences might hear “trans-women are gross”.
Tldr; I think I see where you’re both coming from. We cis-het-men are notoriously fragile, especially when our allyship is questioned. I think it will be more effective for people trying to point out people’s latent transphobia to take an educational/ collaborative tone at first, and it’s something I’m going to try to do a better job of helping people understand.
Honestly, thank you two for having this spat so that I could map it out in my head better, I’m not sure I’ve done the best job typing it out though. You’re both welcome to tell me to fuck off.
I know plenty of cis and trans lesbians who love to suck cock. Just not men’s cocks.
And I am equally suspicious of lesbians who are like “trans men are an exception” because they generally either treat trans men like shit or realize they’re bi but only interested in dating and fucking other queer folks.
Not dictating to you what you should like, pointing out that what you’re saying doesn’t actually make sense when it comes to interacting with women in real life and not just looking up porn categories.