Ok, I have an interest in a good faith conversation and realllllly hope we can do so about one of the “What This Isn’t” sections.
Please, bear with me if there is some obvious context that I am missing and understand I’m genuinely asking I’m good faith.
“A place for people who are straight and cis. Really can’t emphasize this one enough. I don’t care how nefarious or well-intentioned you are, you also need to be LGBTQIA+ in some way or another.”
This seems exclusionary to an entire group of allies and people who may find the ability to recognize something in the folks taking part in that community that allows them to be their true selves. It also feels a touch damning personally as someone who strives to practice tolerance and exceptance as a matter of course.
Is this in jest to keep with the villain motif? Is it a brand of humor and irony that I’m not privy to as a person outside of the community? Should I just accept its gate keeping as empowerment and move on?
I also understand you are likely not the author of the manifesto and not beholden to it’s message nor owe me an explanation. This is genuinely a question to expand my understanding of a world outside of my own as a (you guessed it) cis, 40 year old, white gun owner in America.
I am more than happy to engage in good faith! Though, please excuse me if some of my commentary is provocative. That is, in a very deliberate way, part of the ethos.
This seems exclusionary to an entire group of allies
That’s intentional, because queer villainy is fundamentally about the building community amid the shared struggle of outcasts rather than bridging the gap between outcasts and wider society.
We have no desire to integrate, to debate the merits of tolerance under an intolerant regime, or to seek acceptance from those with normative perspectives. Our existence stands in direct contravention of those norms and we will not apologize for rebelling against them.
Is this in jest to keep with the villain motif?
No, it’s fully sincere. Queer Villain Pride is a non-cisheteronormative space. Allies can be allies and as individuals we welcome whatever support is offered, but only queer people can be queer villains.
Is it a brand of humor and irony that I’m not privy to as a person outside of the community?
There’s an aspect of that, but it’s mostly centered around our self-styling as villains and the irony inherent to finding power and a sense of aesthetic identity in one’s exclusion from “polite” society. “Evil” but only in the narrowest sense of rebellion against an intolerable status quo.
Should I just accept its gate keeping as empowerment and move on?
That’s likely the healthiest response. Queer Villain Pride isn’t an organized group with membership rolls and the like, there’s nothing preventing a straight cis person from pretending to be one of us other than their own sense of hypocrisy.
Thank you so much for the breakdown. I feel genuinely educated about something new and fascinating.
The concept of intentional exclusion sounds parallel to my experience as a metal head since childhood. There are times when we are the flavor of the day and others where we are being literally chased out of town (good times touring Utah with a band called fuck god in the face immediately after September 11, lol). But it is always a community that welcomes with a bit of gatekeeping. Sometimes a precious thing needs to be polished with a sneer.
The perspective on allyship is also interesting. I am never quite sure where to state my stance without appearing cloy or pandering. There’s an easy line between honesty and rainbow capitalism but it blurs a bit when you’re an individual who empathetically wants everyone to be able, safe and comfortable being the version of themselves they feel inside. Again, I think there’s another parallel between our communities.
The point on humor/irony or “evil” as you framed it is fun as well. In my simple understanding it’s akin to a statement of empowerment much the same as being a bad bitch. Love it. Be the Dr Evil you want to see in the world. Cpt Hammers be damned. (Not that a villain needs permission). I hope one day the status quo catches up to your virtue and you are all able to find new paths of decadent evil to engage in.
Cheers to that community. I will admire from afar and keep my mouth shut about it. Lest I spoil the delicious villainy for my own hetero purposes. But I will still perform in a mask and cape on stage at a crummy metal venue and raise a mental toast in our shared existence.
Solidarity is a bit ironic given the topic. Exclusion sounds a lot like an anti-racist saying, “communities must stay segregated”. It’s giving me weird separate-but-equal vibes even after your explanation, and “separate but equal” is still a terrible policy.
There’s nothing ironic about queer outcasts sharing a bond of unity and common cause with non-queer outcasts without giving up their identity as queer folks.
The venn diagram of Metalheads and Queer Villains is neither a circle nor entirely separate. Indeed, some of my favorite queer villains are also metalheads, punks, and/or transgressive rockers.
There is intersectionality here, and your feeling of “separate but equal” about it is merely a product of a society that abhors the complexity and ambiguity that allows us space to thrive.
People can be more than one thing, we all contain multitudes.
People can also appreciate the uniqueness of a group of folks without themselves being of their number. I, for example, am not a metalhead because I have only tangential interest in the genre, but I have much respect for the way the Metal community makes an effort to reject Nazis and other fascists that try to weasel their in among their number.
You seem to have a more nuanced take than the icon guide provides room for. No one in their right mind is going to complain about having legitimate safe spaces to grow, but it is by very definition segregation to grow public communities with engrained exclusion.
Ok, I have an interest in a good faith conversation and realllllly hope we can do so about one of the “What This Isn’t” sections.
Please, bear with me if there is some obvious context that I am missing and understand I’m genuinely asking I’m good faith.
“A place for people who are straight and cis. Really can’t emphasize this one enough. I don’t care how nefarious or well-intentioned you are, you also need to be LGBTQIA+ in some way or another.”
This seems exclusionary to an entire group of allies and people who may find the ability to recognize something in the folks taking part in that community that allows them to be their true selves. It also feels a touch damning personally as someone who strives to practice tolerance and exceptance as a matter of course.
Is this in jest to keep with the villain motif? Is it a brand of humor and irony that I’m not privy to as a person outside of the community? Should I just accept its gate keeping as empowerment and move on?
I also understand you are likely not the author of the manifesto and not beholden to it’s message nor owe me an explanation. This is genuinely a question to expand my understanding of a world outside of my own as a (you guessed it) cis, 40 year old, white gun owner in America.
I am more than happy to engage in good faith! Though, please excuse me if some of my commentary is provocative. That is, in a very deliberate way, part of the ethos.
That’s intentional, because queer villainy is fundamentally about the building community amid the shared struggle of outcasts rather than bridging the gap between outcasts and wider society.
We have no desire to integrate, to debate the merits of tolerance under an intolerant regime, or to seek acceptance from those with normative perspectives. Our existence stands in direct contravention of those norms and we will not apologize for rebelling against them.
No, it’s fully sincere. Queer Villain Pride is a non-cisheteronormative space. Allies can be allies and as individuals we welcome whatever support is offered, but only queer people can be queer villains.
There’s an aspect of that, but it’s mostly centered around our self-styling as villains and the irony inherent to finding power and a sense of aesthetic identity in one’s exclusion from “polite” society. “Evil” but only in the narrowest sense of rebellion against an intolerable status quo.
That’s likely the healthiest response. Queer Villain Pride isn’t an organized group with membership rolls and the like, there’s nothing preventing a straight cis person from pretending to be one of us other than their own sense of hypocrisy.
Thank you so much for the breakdown. I feel genuinely educated about something new and fascinating.
The concept of intentional exclusion sounds parallel to my experience as a metal head since childhood. There are times when we are the flavor of the day and others where we are being literally chased out of town (good times touring Utah with a band called fuck god in the face immediately after September 11, lol). But it is always a community that welcomes with a bit of gatekeeping. Sometimes a precious thing needs to be polished with a sneer.
The perspective on allyship is also interesting. I am never quite sure where to state my stance without appearing cloy or pandering. There’s an easy line between honesty and rainbow capitalism but it blurs a bit when you’re an individual who empathetically wants everyone to be able, safe and comfortable being the version of themselves they feel inside. Again, I think there’s another parallel between our communities.
The point on humor/irony or “evil” as you framed it is fun as well. In my simple understanding it’s akin to a statement of empowerment much the same as being a bad bitch. Love it. Be the Dr Evil you want to see in the world. Cpt Hammers be damned. (Not that a villain needs permission). I hope one day the status quo catches up to your virtue and you are all able to find new paths of decadent evil to engage in.
Cheers to that community. I will admire from afar and keep my mouth shut about it. Lest I spoil the delicious villainy for my own hetero purposes. But I will still perform in a mask and cape on stage at a crummy metal venue and raise a mental toast in our shared existence.
Have a fantastic day my friend!
Solidarity, my friend! I’m always happy to share with open minds such as yours!
Solidarity is a bit ironic given the topic. Exclusion sounds a lot like an anti-racist saying, “communities must stay segregated”. It’s giving me weird separate-but-equal vibes even after your explanation, and “separate but equal” is still a terrible policy.
There’s nothing ironic about queer outcasts sharing a bond of unity and common cause with non-queer outcasts without giving up their identity as queer folks.
The venn diagram of Metalheads and Queer Villains is neither a circle nor entirely separate. Indeed, some of my favorite queer villains are also metalheads, punks, and/or transgressive rockers.
There is intersectionality here, and your feeling of “separate but equal” about it is merely a product of a society that abhors the complexity and ambiguity that allows us space to thrive.
People can be more than one thing, we all contain multitudes.
People can also appreciate the uniqueness of a group of folks without themselves being of their number. I, for example, am not a metalhead because I have only tangential interest in the genre, but I have much respect for the way the Metal community makes an effort to reject Nazis and other fascists that try to weasel their in among their number.
You seem to have a more nuanced take than the icon guide provides room for. No one in their right mind is going to complain about having legitimate safe spaces to grow, but it is by very definition segregation to grow public communities with engrained exclusion.