I think about this a lot, about free will to make a choice in an otherwise-deterministic universe, and the thing that gets me is… yeah, it sort of makes sense if you consider the person making the decision like a black box. A decision comes out, and it seems free.
But what goes on in the box? How can it possibly be free will? If I were making a choice to benefit myself, and I had perfect information about the options and the consequences, then wouldn’t everybody in my position make the same (objectively best) choice? If I make a non-optimal decision because I lack some information, then that’s not free will, that’s due to an external circumstance. If I make a non-optimal decision because I’m not of rational mind, then that’s not free will, that’s either an intrinsic quality of my mind, or due to external influences. If I chose to be intentionally non-rational to prove that I have free will, the idea of free will itself and the need to prove it would be the external influence driving me.
If the choice was just one of just one of preference, then the preference is either one I was born with, or the product of outside influences. Maybe there’s somebody who can logic themselves into liking cauliflower au gratin without reference to subjective sensory experience, or cultural significance, and I just can’t imagine how?
First of all, i don’t think we can reduce choices to something to optimize. You can’t know everything and your benefit is a pretty unknown variable too. Being rational is great but also not suitable for every choice, it’s not that that i would call free will.
Now the idea that what we are born as and every experience from then on shape you and your choice is a good hypothesis. It means we humans are just as deterministic as everything else.
Then free will is just the term we use for the unknown and unknowable in us. Like when we call rolling a dice random. But it’s not a real physical thing.
But here is where my proposal can still be a good hypothesis too…
There is one thing that is a black box to our knowledge, not our biology or our brain, but our conscience.
We don’t really know what it is yet. We know a lot of biology and we’re getting better and better at understanding our brain. But our subjective experiences are not explained by science. And thus in it could lie something not deterministic.
(As a parallel, just like we don’t know how to interpret quantum mechanics, wich could have true randomness, or not…)
P.S. i do this parallel with physics because i’m more knowledgeable on it, but also because i think there is a good amount of understanding and questioning we can have on determinism through it ^^
I do tend to think of choices that way. The way I understand the human mind is as a rational optimizer of utility. The brain has to balance all manner of competing sensory and cognitive input, and the mind constantly seeks to maximize pleasure and/or relief from distress. (That’s what I mean by utility.) They say that all models are wrong, but some are useful, and this one proves very useful. Instead of dismissing people as disturbed or crazy, look for the pleasure or relief that their mind is optimizing for. Drug users destroying their lives by seeking the next fix do so because the pleasure and relief of the drug is greater than distress from alienating family and friends. This is why people have to hit rock bottom before they’ll kick the addition; it’s when the distress of ruining their lives overwhelms the lure of the drug. This model even helped me understand a friend with schizophrenia. Her decisions were quite rational, actually, but were based on distorted and false perceptions.
Now this is funny, writing it out like this brought a mini-epiphany to me, a different model of what “free will” might mean. Our minds do have the freedom to change and react differently to different sensory and cognitive inputs. We’re not automatons fixed to a preset course of action. And it makes sense that way that even protozoans have some degree of free will. Intriguing!
Ho, I see what you meant now by this optimizing idea. And yes i would agree, it’s not exempt from exceptions, but this is a good way to describe most brain functions, definitely useful. Reward circuit being a prime example, one you summed up very well.
I don’t know for protozoan but to anything complex enough to have subjective experiences yes, it could have it. Definitely an interesting idea, wich i guess would fit with God, but possible regardless.
I think about this a lot, about free will to make a choice in an otherwise-deterministic universe, and the thing that gets me is… yeah, it sort of makes sense if you consider the person making the decision like a black box. A decision comes out, and it seems free.
But what goes on in the box? How can it possibly be free will? If I were making a choice to benefit myself, and I had perfect information about the options and the consequences, then wouldn’t everybody in my position make the same (objectively best) choice? If I make a non-optimal decision because I lack some information, then that’s not free will, that’s due to an external circumstance. If I make a non-optimal decision because I’m not of rational mind, then that’s not free will, that’s either an intrinsic quality of my mind, or due to external influences. If I chose to be intentionally non-rational to prove that I have free will, the idea of free will itself and the need to prove it would be the external influence driving me.
If the choice was just one of just one of preference, then the preference is either one I was born with, or the product of outside influences. Maybe there’s somebody who can logic themselves into liking cauliflower au gratin without reference to subjective sensory experience, or cultural significance, and I just can’t imagine how?
First of all, i don’t think we can reduce choices to something to optimize. You can’t know everything and your benefit is a pretty unknown variable too. Being rational is great but also not suitable for every choice, it’s not that that i would call free will.
Now the idea that what we are born as and every experience from then on shape you and your choice is a good hypothesis. It means we humans are just as deterministic as everything else.
Then free will is just the term we use for the unknown and unknowable in us. Like when we call rolling a dice random. But it’s not a real physical thing.
But here is where my proposal can still be a good hypothesis too…
There is one thing that is a black box to our knowledge, not our biology or our brain, but our conscience.
We don’t really know what it is yet. We know a lot of biology and we’re getting better and better at understanding our brain. But our subjective experiences are not explained by science. And thus in it could lie something not deterministic.
(As a parallel, just like we don’t know how to interpret quantum mechanics, wich could have true randomness, or not…)
P.S. i do this parallel with physics because i’m more knowledgeable on it, but also because i think there is a good amount of understanding and questioning we can have on determinism through it ^^
I do tend to think of choices that way. The way I understand the human mind is as a rational optimizer of utility. The brain has to balance all manner of competing sensory and cognitive input, and the mind constantly seeks to maximize pleasure and/or relief from distress. (That’s what I mean by utility.) They say that all models are wrong, but some are useful, and this one proves very useful. Instead of dismissing people as disturbed or crazy, look for the pleasure or relief that their mind is optimizing for. Drug users destroying their lives by seeking the next fix do so because the pleasure and relief of the drug is greater than distress from alienating family and friends. This is why people have to hit rock bottom before they’ll kick the addition; it’s when the distress of ruining their lives overwhelms the lure of the drug. This model even helped me understand a friend with schizophrenia. Her decisions were quite rational, actually, but were based on distorted and false perceptions.
Now this is funny, writing it out like this brought a mini-epiphany to me, a different model of what “free will” might mean. Our minds do have the freedom to change and react differently to different sensory and cognitive inputs. We’re not automatons fixed to a preset course of action. And it makes sense that way that even protozoans have some degree of free will. Intriguing!
Ho, I see what you meant now by this optimizing idea. And yes i would agree, it’s not exempt from exceptions, but this is a good way to describe most brain functions, definitely useful. Reward circuit being a prime example, one you summed up very well.
I don’t know for protozoan but to anything complex enough to have subjective experiences yes, it could have it. Definitely an interesting idea, wich i guess would fit with God, but possible regardless.