given that the question doesn’t stipulate that the ussr stays out of other countries’ politics, probably more red at least until the fall of the ussr, and then who knows?
the question kind of assumes a success of the truman doctrine and an accuracy of the domino theory, which i don’t know is correct
i dont think it’s likely that the us won the cold war because democratically-backed-capitalism was worse than non-democratically-backed-state-capitalism
I am just wondering if the US stayed Isolated after WW2 and did not intervene in any countries business like over throwing dictators or supporting or starting rebelens and suchwhat would the world look like today? Would they look at the US and see that democracy works or would they go with some other type of governance?
Most countries would be socialist.
Those countries would have been taken over by communist regimes due to support from hostile nations… So like Cuba but all over the place.
Didn’t realize I was on .ml till I saw this
You and me both. WTF is rule 1 in this context even?
Well, like Cuba without the embargo.
Bananas would cost more
no more banana for $10
There’s always money in the banana stand.
America genociding Gautemala avoided in such a timeline?
Oh did America “genocide (verb)” Guatemala?
History doesn’t provide answers to hypotheticals
That’s why they’re asking people and not reading a history book.
Definitely a better place.
It really depends on how far back you want to look.
If the US was to suddenly stop projecting its interests internationally, then as others have mentioned, then likely the world work become somewhat more socialized. European countries would probably step up and try to keep China in check, but without the US contributing to these efforts, it would cause a significant strain on their military resources.
If the US was to take an isolationist policy 100 years ago, then there is a good chance that WW2 would have been won by the Axis. The Allied forces likely would have put up a good fight, but I’m not sure they would have emerged victorious against the combined Axis forces. The war in the Pacific would have raged on much longer, and without nuclear weapons, there would have been an extreme loss of life invading Japan. At the very least, WW2 would have lasted much much longer than it did. Depending on the outcome, plenty of countries might currently be speaking German and debating if they should tear down 80-year-old statues of Hitler.
Why stop at 100 years? Imagine 150 years. No US - Spain war, no US intervention in WW1. Maybe that would have meant no WW2.
And isolationism includes not helping Nazis and their allies like Texaco, Ford or IBM did?
If the US was to take an isolationist policy 100 years ago, then there is a good chance that WW2 would have been won by the Axis. The Allied forces likely would have put up a good fight, but I’m not sure they would have emerged victorious against the combined Axis forces. The war in the Pacific would have raged on much longer, and without nuclear weapons, there would have been an extreme loss of life invading Japan. At the very least, WW2 would have lasted much much longer than it did. Depending on the outcome, plenty of countries might currently be speaking German and debating if they should tear down 80-year-old statues of Hitler.
The only people who believe this drivel are those who have only learned about WWII via Hollywood and YT videos. Go listen to an actual historian and you will not hear this fantasy. They will tell you that Germany had one foot in the grave by the time the US joined the Western front. The only ounce of truth in this statement is that the Pacific theatre would have gone on longer.
Edit: I didn’t touch on this but should have…the whole idea that a nuclear attack on Japan was necessary or even justified in any way is not only incorrect but is a racist, genocidal excuse for not one, but TWO of the most horrific acts in our entire history. You should be ashamed for propagating this tired lie.
he did mention isolationist, so… we’d also have to consider how the eastern front would have evolved without lend-lease. not a historian so perhaps consensus is the Nazis still wouldn’t have had a chance, but still
Good points. It’s difficult to find a clear answer to how important lend-lease was to the Soviet war effort. During the war, the USSR and US obviously had good things to say about the program, but the start of the Cold War soured this discussion, leading to the US overstating and the USSR understating the impact. Here’s an excerpt from a paper by a British scholar exploring the topic. Emphasis is the author’s:
It is neither possible nor fruitful to try and put a precise measure on the material value of allied aid to the Soviet war economy, if only because of the unavailability of many Soviet production data. Whatever the value of western aid, the Soviet war effort was measured in human life and suffering incomparable with material aid from outside. Further, the Soviet economy became much more of a war economy than other combatant nations. Nonetheless, it seems that the contribution made by deliveries from the USA and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Canada, played an important part at crucial times and in crucial areas. First, and above all, was a vital margin of food supplies, second was the provision of specialist or deficit products such as aluminium and copper, specialized tools, high quality steels. In this respect lend-lease supplies overcame bottlenecks. However, it must be stressed that the major impact came after the Soviet counterattack and the beginning of German retreat. Such aid directly and indirectly helped defeat the German forces, and was in such a way a substitute for a second front, but it did little to defend the USSR from the initial onslaught. Third, some of the raw materials and more especially machinery and transport equipment was of positive value to the Soviet economy after the war. For this, the tyre plant is the best but not the only example.
It is nonsense to repeat the figure of four per cent of Soviet wartime production and disingenuous to disparage western aid - a feature evident in Soviet literature and one criticized even by Khrushchev. It is nonetheless true (and this is a point repeated in some Soviet works) that Britain and the Empire received far more than the USSR from the United States. Lend-lease, in this respect, may be seen as a temporary substitute for foreign trade. Britain was a major trading nation, highly dependent on imports, especially for food and raw materials. The USSR, on the other hand, was an economy with little trade dependence whose foreign trade turnover had fallen steadily during the 1930s…
The part left off at the end compares repayment of aid sent to the British vs the Soviets. A fairly short read that will give some more context to the conclusions I shared above.
One of the main points the author makes is that lend-lease was used by the US as a stand-in for entering the war and opening a new front in 1942 as the allies (and Stalin in particular) were requesting. In this context, lend-lease was a replacement for reopening the Western front in 1942, an action that could have been far more impactful. The US provided material aid in lieu of entering the war, shifting the human burden of the war onto the other Allied forces and particularly the USSR from 1942 to least 1944 (note that lend-lease aid extended wider and was provided from 1941-1945).
Overall, the impression I’ve gotten from sifting through academic writings on the subject is that while lend-lease certainly helped take some of the pressure off of the USSR (mainly in the form of producing food, trucks, and raw materials), it’s most likely that the result would have been the same. That said, wondering over historical what-ifs, while fun, should really be constrained to recreational musing and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
amazing comment, thanks!
Most likely some other country (or countries) would simply fulfill the same role of projecting their military and economic power onto the rest of the world to maintain their hegemony. We see this in limited ways already with many other countries, though with a few exceptions, they’re careful in how much they conflict with US interests. One of these, likely China, would move into that role and while the details would be different in some ways, many of the overall dynamics would be similar.
Now you got me questioning if China ever got involved in foreign politics and back a coup which was more favorite to them?
Chinese foreign policy has been fairly cautious and covert compared to other world powers. I think this has generally been a good strategy as it has avoided major conflicts with the US and Europe in recent times.
I can’t think of any coup they’ve directly supported but they certainly have supported military movements and governments in other countries, including Vietnam, North Korea, Myanmar, and Venezuela. So they’ve been a bit less prone to overthrowing governments but they aren’t afraid to use similar tactics to keep friendly regimes in power, to helping those factions expand power.
China’s history goes back thousands of years. Scratch even the surface of that and you will find horrors, genocides, brutality, and atrocities.
I was speaking specifically of regime change efforts by the CCP, but I imagine that would be true of any empire. Yes, China is an empire—the fact that it is one nation doesn’t change the underlying political dynamic of exploitation of subjugated peoples in the periphery by the ruling elite.
I think the modern American empire is seen as much more dangerous than the modern Chinese one.
In the current moment I would agree. I’m not sure that would be true in comparison to a hypothetical sole superpower China. But who can say for sure.
China’s foreign policy model seems focused on making deals with the existing power no matter what. Part of that seems to be that China does not believe in odious debt like a lot of Western countries do. When settling debts, Chinese institutions have been far more insistent on keeping write-offs from occuring.
China has also generally pushed for more one on one transactional deals with countries. There have been some international institutions made like the AIIB, but I don’t see the institutional creation of systems like the USA tried to do.
What do you mean by keeping write-offs from occurring?
A lot of times, the IMF will lead all creditors of a country to restructure, reduce, or reschedule existing debt. What is happening is that Chinese institutions appears to be less willing to write down bad debt, holding up a lot of negotiations between debt holders. So, the debt doesn’t get reduced.
Is this a bad thing somehow? I would think reducing debts is generally beneficial, especially in times of economic crisis.
Who needs to do that when they lare oan sharking the countries
You might get to see that in Russia with how Putler is screwing things up.
The world would be far more Socialized.
Just imagine how scared and hungry we could all be
That’s actually the really sad story here.
Every “experimental” regime was either toppled (Chile) or had to align with the USSR (Cuba) to survive. There was never a real attempt at democratic socialist politics without interference from superpowers.
There was never a government at all without interference from superpowers.
Of course, but most governments are allowed to mostly be sovereign.
Sweden or Australia play ball on their own, no need for a coup here.
Lol, what? Australia is a US lackee more than anywhere else. And the CIA was definitely involved in the Whitlam sacking.
For real, the US committed a coup in Australia with Whitlam. They don’t constrain the CIA to just poor countries.
All Socialism is democratic, including Cuba and the USSR. Trying to reform the system along Socialist lines from within the system like Allende is why he sadly failed and was couped by the US Empire.
This is a non sequitur. It doesn’t follow that Allende choosing reform over revolution is what resulted in the US interference. The US has been known to interfere in revolutionary movements as well.
The US tried to invade Cuba as well, and tried to kill Castro, several times. That’s ultimately why he did align with the USSR - choosing the bully that’s slightly more on your side.
The “It’s a Small World” ride at Disneyland.
The issue comes down to imperialism imo.
Western societies have an imperialist belief that we should be at the head of the table when it comes to the world order, politics, and having a say about what happens outside of our borders.
This is ingrained in all of us from a very young age by design. They’ve been doing it for millennia, and it’s been working pretty well, so no need to change tactics.
It’s also why non-western nation-states aren’t as involved directly in the politics of other nations. It’s not really a part of their ethos as a culture.
You’ve got a good point there but limiting it just to the west shows your lack of understanding about world politics. The imperialist approach is present in many parts of the world and throughout old and recent history. Besides the west, Russia (warning: propagandists incoming) is doing that with neighboring countries and in Africa, just like China and other African countries are doing that too in Africa. Rwanda in Congo for example. China to Hong Kong and Taiwan. Japan and their massacres during WWII. Morocco in the Sahara region. Israel in Palestine, and vice versa Hamas to Israel. In Islamic countries: sunnies vs sjiets (or however it’s written).
So your point of view is a bit too brainwashed around the west I’m afraid. Lots of governments trying to subjugate other countries for wealth and power benefits.
That’s a fair critique.
Other countries would probably still have some similar shit. People are people.
Not to mention some other country would’ve been doing this instead. Other countries do, the US has just been the most notorious and the king of colonialism
I’m not even sure the US counts as king but that’s for historians to argue I guess
Or colonial empire for that matter
The US projects its own interests worldwide but those often overlap with the interests of other as well.
For example, the US often stipulates intellectual property and worker rights in it’s trade deals. The US actively protects shipping lanes. The US actively negotiates visa-free entry for American passport holders to other countries. The US invests in the economies of foreign countries to stimulate trade opportunities. The US controls the SWIFT banking network which makes it so that we don’t need to send gold bullion or pallets of cash to buy things from other countries, and participating in the system requires member countries to have certain controls in place that attempt to block bad actors. The US, through it’s embassies and ambassadors, deploys it ideology to foreign governments, and makes deals that allow foreigners to invest in the USA and Americans to open businesses in foreign countries.
The US actively shuns and makes life difficult for menace dictatorships on the global stage by creating trade exclusions.
There have been coups since the beginning of time and always will be, as it’s human nature. Many citizens of other countries have no belief that the future of their country belongs to them after decades or centuries of dictatorships or kingdoms. On the whole, history shows that kingdoms rise and fall for many reasons and the people sometimes benefit and sometimes suffer for it.
Obviously it’s a highly complex topic, but if the US wasn’t doing these things, then Russia or China would be, or there would be more powerful regional factions, which could reduce the size of the world in terms of travel and trade options for many.
Whether the US is the right one to be in control of this at this point in history is a matter of intense debate among some, but it could absolutely be worse than it is now.
Well the troubles would have continued. So there that.
Ooh I think you need to read more about history. For once, CIA wouldn’t need to support drug dealers to finance its operations in Central America. Guess where those drugs were being consumed?
What?
the cia admitted to starting the cocaine epidemic so that they can use the money to fund rebel fighters to keep central american countries weak and dependent on the united states.
I probably should have capitalised The Troubles shouldn’t I
On a tangentially related note, this documentary series from BBC4 is a fascinating insight into the decision making process the US went through over dealing with foreign mass atrocities over the past 40 years: Iraq, Bosnia, Rwanda, Syria etc.
Warning: they do not hold back with the imagery of these events.
Did they also go into mass atrocities committed and initiated by the US? If you go around lighting fires and then come back around to put them out after donning an official uniform, should others consider you a fire fighter or an arsonist?
Is there a single instance covered that wasn’t a situation the US directly and purposely had a hand in creating?
You should watch it and find out for yourself.
I will, but this is an 8 hour series.
I know, I watched it all.
Any chance you’d be willing to provide answers to any of my questions based on what you saw?
