Liberals love collective punishment and have been in a Russophobic bender for decades, with an uptick in recent years. They hate all Russians and repeat racist rhetoric from Ukrainian Nazis.
I’m well aware that liberal is an international term.
However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean “left wing” or “relating to the Democrat party”.
People in the US wouldn’t describe an expansion in gun rights as something the libs would want, for example.
Nor would people in the US agree that liberal people want more freedoms for businesses.
But those are parts of liberal ideology elsewhere.
And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.
I’m well aware that liberalism is an international term.
Yet you assumed I made a US-specific reference when I did in no way do so.
However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean “left wing” or “relating to the Democrat party”.
Yes I know. I was not using it in that sense.
And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.
It is not bullshit. There are and have been Ukrainian Mazis and liberals falling over themselves to repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
There is literally nowhere on planet earth where humans live in any large number where you will not find Nazis.
Claiming that Ukraine is rife with it in any meaningful sense is very much a Russian talking point, and even one of the defenses given by Russia in starting their war/genocide.
Stop repeating Russian propaganda.
Honestly, what is it with lemmy.ml and people who love Russia?
I was not. Please do your best to participate in good faith and not make things up, let alone make them up and then repeatedly assert them based on nothing.
There is literally nowhere on planet earth where humans live in any large number where you will not find Nazis.
That is true, but also does not contradict anything I have said, nor does it excuse those who repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
Claiming that Ukraine is rife with it in any meaningful sense
I haven’t said anything like this. That is your insertion.
Stop repeating Russian propaganda.
Please stop lying about what I have said.
Honestly, what is it with lemmy.ml and people who love Russia?
It’s not me, it is you doing a poor job at wrestling with your cognitive dissonance. My mere mention of Russophobia from liberals, borrowed from Ukrainian Nazis, resulted in you inventing entire lines of thought and arguments that were not there rather than directly engaging with the facts if the matter. This is defensive behavior intended to avoid what I said and return to an arena where you feel more comfortable.
Not ironically, that arena is one where you feel comfortable being against Russia, lmao.
Yawn. Stop repeating the propaganda of a murderous dictatorship that has invaded their neighbour and is committing a genocide and mass rape as we speak.
Russia is more of an oligarchy, like a huge number of countries that are not the current Object of Hate. Russia is not committing a genocide, that is absurd. It is a conventional modern war, which is horrific enough on its own. The US and Israel are committing genocide, however. The US is doing two at once, actually. Re: mass rape, there is little to no evidence of anything systemic, which I believe is what this would have to mean. But again, war is horrific, and rape is a common wrapon of war. No armies of Western states are innocent of this.
Anyways I am getting tripped up in your internalized propaganda. What propaganda am I repeating, exactly, and how is it false?
The Nazis are the ones trying to do their own little Anschluss.
The Nazis are the people with Black Sun tats normalizing racial slurs and shelling civilian areas.
Presumably you also hate most Americans and Israelis, then.
Personally, I only hate those who take an active role in a major injustice and am merely frustrated with those who are passive, and I do so consistently across nationalities.
I think Palestinians have a right to be angry at Israelis, even to the point of potential violence.
And yet, by and large, Palestinians, facing genocide, focus their fights on soldiers and military equipment while showing empathy towards those Israelis who aren’t actively expressing racism towards them.
But yes Palestinians do have every right to resist occupation and genocide through violence.
But this was not my question. It is whether you consiste tky believe in and apply the rhetoric you are using or whether you are, note likely, swept up in the current hate-on towards all Russians.
Much in the same way I think Russians have long passed a historical threshold for which we should consider whether they are compatible with civilized society.
This reads as very racist and draws on orientalist tropes. I assume you picked them up from the upsurge in fascistic rhetoric, including from Ukrainian Nazis whose rhetoric has been amplified and anonymized/filtered through mainstream repetitiom, and have not discovered this talking point de novo.
We gave them a shot after the USSR fell, they didn’t take the opportunity to clean up their act.
tf are you talking about. The fall of the USSR came with a mass expropriation if wealth and industry and social programs at the expense of tens of millions of lives. Attempts to join the imperial core were rebuffed, it was placed in permanent shock therapy territory and systematically excluded. They did exactly what Western interests wanted them to do. This is the Russia your ideology created.
So now we’re going back to it, confrontation.
There was never a pause in imperialist escalation.
Only this time we’re not 2-3x stronger than them, we’re 10-20x. I like those odds.
I see that rather than ask yourself whether you consistently apply your logic, you are here just revealing that you are a nationalist that truly does not care and is now excited for a world war.
With Russia and whose army? Because theirs can’t handle Ukraine on their own. Their missiles explode on the launchpad, their submarines sink themselves, their only aircraft carrier has more Russian kills than enemy.
Oh, you honestly think China will save them? That’s absolutely adorable.
That shock therapy? That was their own oligarchs looting Russia wildly, which is why corruption has destroyed the Russian military so completely.
Russia has historically felt their only safety came from the perception by others that they were strong. That perception was utterly shattered by Ukraine, forever.
There is no way this turns out that is not disastrous for Russia, but then again I guess they just call that ‘history’. Personally I’m looking forward to it with anticipation.
Not thirsty for blood, thirsty for justice, as are much of Europe that were victims of Russian imperialism under the name of ‘buffer states’. Now those states are stronger than them and everyone is desperately eager to watch them suffer.
I could make a fortune selling popcorn in eastern Europe.
Just Russia? Or all countries with the same violations that outrage you? What about those with even worse? Are you excited for justice in all cases?
And a world War?
Yes.
With Russia and whose army?
A world war would involve multiple countries on both sides, dragged in by mutual ties and a recognition of which camp would have it in for them in victory. Starting am open war with Russia would drag in all nations that have sought independence and needed to build up a military to prevent being overcome by the domjnant superpower. Eventually it would drag in every major state. It is hard to say how all of the chios would fall, but the conditions under which Russia were openly targeted for destruction would immediately create alarm in China, Iran, and most of Africa. That bloc has an order of magnitude more productive capacity and manpower than the “good guys” you would have in mind.
Because theirs can’t handle Ukraine on their own.
Russia could destroy and overtake UA at basically any time but is instead choosing this status quo as achieving a strategic objective, namely bleeding UA of manpower and weapons stocks. Russia has notably not used the scorched earth approach that NATO and NATO ally countries have consistently taken during their invasions, one where mass civilian destruction and terror are the main components of victory and control, where their forces fall apart the minute theyvlack air superiority. UA does not have sufficient air defenses to prevent such attacks, Russia simply chooses not to make them.
If things turn south, I have no doubt Russia would adopt the more NATO-ie “make the civilian population scream for mercy and then push them even harder” approach.
Their missiles explode on the launchpad, their submarines sink themselves, their only aircraft carrier has more Russian kills than enemy.
You might as well just write, “I am easily misled by propaganda”. Since the beginning of the war, the false prospect that Ukraine could win has been essential for manufacturing consent for every ask made by Kyiv and the US government, up to and including mass deindustrialization of regions of Europe and making the EU dollar dependent again. Just follow the sources of what you read and ask what they choose to report on vs not and who pays them. It will be revealing.
Oh, you honestly think China will save them? That’s absolutely adorable.
Save them from what? If China is in a world war you can kiss any semblance of normalcy in your life goodbye. You should fear these prospects, not LARP about how much you will win. These are all nuclear powers with greater industrial capacity.
That shock therapy? That was their own oligarchs looting Russia wildly, which is why corruption has destroyed the Russian military so completely.
Feel free to familiarize yourself with what shock therapy refers to in this context. No lectures from you about this if you don’t know something so basic. But, in short: the oligarchs were created by this shock therapy, of mass privatization, and it was done by US policy in the region. Modern Russia is a direct consequence of US shock therapy treatment.
Russia has historically felt their only safety came from the perception by others that they were strong. That perception was utterly shattered by Ukraine, forever.
Silly little fairy tales.
There is no way this turns out that is not disastrous for Russia, but then again I guess they just call that ‘history’. Personally I’m looking forward to it with anticipation.
What about a disaster in Russia makes you excited?
Not thirsty for blood, thirsty for justice, as are much of Europe that were victims of Russian imperialism under the name of ‘buffer states’.
Justice is not abstract, it has a grounding in ending injustice, creating accountability, and making whole. Given that you seem, unprompted, pretty stoked for war, I don’t accept your claim to not have thirst for blood.
Re: Europe being victims of imperialism, what on earth are you talking about? I assume you are referring to the Warsaw Pact but I can only guess at what comic book-esque brainworms are at work.
Now those states are stronger than them and everyone is desperately eager to watch them suffer.
So you wish suffering on the Russian people? Sounds pretty Russophobic.
I could make a fortune selling popcorn in eastern Europe.
Russian hatred? We call that ‘being European’.
Ah, sounds like you hang out in ethnic supremacist spaces. It’s all making sense now.
A world war would involve multiple countries on both sides, dragged in by mutual ties and a recognition of which camp would have it in for them in victory.
This is hilarious. That anyone would stand up for Russia, one of the most hated states on the planet.
China especially, they would watch and wait till Russia was about to fail, and take their eastern territories, giving them both the land and resources they are so desperate for.
Russia is a country without meaningful allies (oh, I’m sorry, I forgot north Korea), in a world that hates them and wants to see them suffer for their past actions.
Poland alone would do anything for the chance to revisit Russia with a fraction of the pain they’ve caused over the centuries, and nobody would dare stop them.
This is inevitable, the Russian decline guarantees their predation and destruction at the hands of their growing neighbors.
Russia is a country without meaningful allies (oh, I’m sorry, I forgot north Korea), in a world that hates them and wants to see them suffer for their past actions.
It’s like you’ve never even heard of BRICS+, which is having its annual conference in Russia right now.
You have no idea what is going on in the world. Russia has rather a lot of allies in fact, it’s just that none of them are imperial core countries.
You may not have noticed that most of the world is ignoring the international rules-based order’s sanctions. And not only almost all of the Global South, which represents ~85% of the world’s people and the bulk of the world’s production* and natural resources. Even many Global North countries are skirting their own sanctions to trade with Russia.
The Global North is largely sanctioning itself, and Europe is paying a very high price for it. In particular high energy prices, which is eroding their industrial base even more.
You’re running on pure, undiluted Western propaganda.
*Since the Global North in its infinite wisdom de-industrialized itself.
This is hilarious. That anyone would stand up for Russia, one of the most hated states on the planet.
What no material grounding does to a person. There is a reason Russia is increasingly popular in the Sahel. Do you think it might also have something to do with Europe and material interest?
Though maybe I shouldn’t elaborate. It is probably good for the rest of the world if chauvinist Europeans falsely believe they represent it.
China especially, they would watch and wait till Russia was about to fail, and take their eastern territories, giving them both the land and resources they are so desperate for.
What, the trees and steppes? China’s material interests in Russia are in fossil fuels and their derivatives, industrial capacity for key industries (though China is overtaking), and as a market to sell things to.
Russia is a country without meaningful allies (oh, I’m sorry, I forgot north Korea), in a world that hates them and wants to see them suffer for their past actions.
Just repeating “European chauvinists represent the world” over and over again Lmao. At the moment European states are certainly acting against Russia, making yourself into weakened American dependencies and shooting the prospect of an independent Eurooe in the head to do it. But that is more manufactured consent than any real popular push. This is why Europe is taking a rightward turn against the liberal order that seeks to isolate Russia: y’all are paying a hefty price to do the US’ bidding.
Poland alone would do anything for the chance to revisit Russia with a fraction of the pain they’ve caused over the centuries, and nobody would dare stop them.
This is, more or less, historical illiteracy.
This is inevitable, the Russian decline guarantees their predation and destruction at the hands of their growing neighbors.
Growing neighbors like what? Belarus? Azerbaijan? Kazakhstan? If you mean China you can just say China.
Though again you have the material developments flipped. Europe is selling itself to Americans, not getting one over on Russia. Europe still buys Russian fossil fuels they just do so at a significant mark-up via middle men.
Like I said, popcorn futures.
Like I said, ethnic supremacist. And with that said, I won’t be giving you more attention.
It seems pretty clear that the negative implication is putin’s regime abusing his authority for sexual favors (especially given all the mass rapes by russian forces in ukraine…) and not that said favors are bad because theyre gay. It’s telling that they assumed it was based in homophobia, though.
Liberals love collective punishment and have been in a Russophobic bender for decades, with an uptick in recent years. They hate all Russians and repeat racist rhetoric from Ukrainian Nazis.
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Liberalism is primarily an international term. You are very confused if you think it is just about US “left” politics.
And I said that there are Ukrainian Nazis whose racism is repeated by liberals. This is a simple fact.
this propaganda is no longer any good bro… 2014-22, it was decent engagement slop for the westoid but it don’t work. why are y’all still using it?
Because it is established fact, as even Western mainstream media has reported.
Because liberals repeated and repeat the talking points of Ukrainian Nazis.
You seem to be under the midapprheen that they either didn’t exist or went away. That would be incorrect.
i trust you bro
No need for trust, it is public record
I’m well aware that liberal is an international term.
However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean “left wing” or “relating to the Democrat party”.
People in the US wouldn’t describe an expansion in gun rights as something the libs would want, for example.
Nor would people in the US agree that liberal people want more freedoms for businesses.
But those are parts of liberal ideology elsewhere.
And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.
When he says “Liberals love collective punishment…” he is not saying left wing, he is saying loudly right wing.
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Dude I’m not endorsing his comment, I’m saying what he means with “Liberals”
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👍
Yet you assumed I made a US-specific reference when I did in no way do so.
Yes I know. I was not using it in that sense.
It is not bullshit. There are and have been Ukrainian Mazis and liberals falling over themselves to repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
You absolutely were using it in that sense.
There is literally nowhere on planet earth where humans live in any large number where you will not find Nazis.
Claiming that Ukraine is rife with it in any meaningful sense is very much a Russian talking point, and even one of the defenses given by Russia in starting their war/genocide.
Stop repeating Russian propaganda.
Honestly, what is it with lemmy.ml and people who love Russia?
I was not. Please do your best to participate in good faith and not make things up, let alone make them up and then repeatedly assert them based on nothing.
That is true, but also does not contradict anything I have said, nor does it excuse those who repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
I haven’t said anything like this. That is your insertion.
Please stop lying about what I have said.
It’s not me, it is you doing a poor job at wrestling with your cognitive dissonance. My mere mention of Russophobia from liberals, borrowed from Ukrainian Nazis, resulted in you inventing entire lines of thought and arguments that were not there rather than directly engaging with the facts if the matter. This is defensive behavior intended to avoid what I said and return to an arena where you feel more comfortable.
Not ironically, that arena is one where you feel comfortable being against Russia, lmao.
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Yes, liberals are often Russophobic nowadays.
Russia is more of an oligarchy, like a huge number of countries that are not the current Object of Hate. Russia is not committing a genocide, that is absurd. It is a conventional modern war, which is horrific enough on its own. The US and Israel are committing genocide, however. The US is doing two at once, actually. Re: mass rape, there is little to no evidence of anything systemic, which I believe is what this would have to mean. But again, war is horrific, and rape is a common wrapon of war. No armies of Western states are innocent of this.
Anyways I am getting tripped up in your internalized propaganda. What propaganda am I repeating, exactly, and how is it false?
The Nazis are the people with Black Sun tats normalizing racial slurs and shelling civilian areas.
The ones that are, are.
Only love speech for Banderites, please.
lmao
I mean, I hate most Russians, but only since they invaded Ukraine.
Russia whines endlessly about ancient wrongs against them, the Finns have a lot to remember about Russia too.
Presumably you also hate most Americans and Israelis, then.
Personally, I only hate those who take an active role in a major injustice and am merely frustrated with those who are passive, and I do so consistently across nationalities.
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And yet, by and large, Palestinians, facing genocide, focus their fights on soldiers and military equipment while showing empathy towards those Israelis who aren’t actively expressing racism towards them.
But yes Palestinians do have every right to resist occupation and genocide through violence.
But this was not my question. It is whether you consiste tky believe in and apply the rhetoric you are using or whether you are, note likely, swept up in the current hate-on towards all Russians.
This reads as very racist and draws on orientalist tropes. I assume you picked them up from the upsurge in fascistic rhetoric, including from Ukrainian Nazis whose rhetoric has been amplified and anonymized/filtered through mainstream repetitiom, and have not discovered this talking point de novo.
tf are you talking about. The fall of the USSR came with a mass expropriation if wealth and industry and social programs at the expense of tens of millions of lives. Attempts to join the imperial core were rebuffed, it was placed in permanent shock therapy territory and systematically excluded. They did exactly what Western interests wanted them to do. This is the Russia your ideology created.
There was never a pause in imperialist escalation.
I see that rather than ask yourself whether you consistently apply your logic, you are here just revealing that you are a nationalist that truly does not care and is now excited for a world war.
I’m excited for Russia seeing justice.
And a world War?
With Russia and whose army? Because theirs can’t handle Ukraine on their own. Their missiles explode on the launchpad, their submarines sink themselves, their only aircraft carrier has more Russian kills than enemy.
Oh, you honestly think China will save them? That’s absolutely adorable.
That shock therapy? That was their own oligarchs looting Russia wildly, which is why corruption has destroyed the Russian military so completely.
Russia has historically felt their only safety came from the perception by others that they were strong. That perception was utterly shattered by Ukraine, forever.
There is no way this turns out that is not disastrous for Russia, but then again I guess they just call that ‘history’. Personally I’m looking forward to it with anticipation.
Not thirsty for blood, thirsty for justice, as are much of Europe that were victims of Russian imperialism under the name of ‘buffer states’. Now those states are stronger than them and everyone is desperately eager to watch them suffer.
I could make a fortune selling popcorn in eastern Europe.
Russian hatred? We call that ‘being European’.
Just Russia? Or all countries with the same violations that outrage you? What about those with even worse? Are you excited for justice in all cases?
Yes.
A world war would involve multiple countries on both sides, dragged in by mutual ties and a recognition of which camp would have it in for them in victory. Starting am open war with Russia would drag in all nations that have sought independence and needed to build up a military to prevent being overcome by the domjnant superpower. Eventually it would drag in every major state. It is hard to say how all of the chios would fall, but the conditions under which Russia were openly targeted for destruction would immediately create alarm in China, Iran, and most of Africa. That bloc has an order of magnitude more productive capacity and manpower than the “good guys” you would have in mind.
Russia could destroy and overtake UA at basically any time but is instead choosing this status quo as achieving a strategic objective, namely bleeding UA of manpower and weapons stocks. Russia has notably not used the scorched earth approach that NATO and NATO ally countries have consistently taken during their invasions, one where mass civilian destruction and terror are the main components of victory and control, where their forces fall apart the minute theyvlack air superiority. UA does not have sufficient air defenses to prevent such attacks, Russia simply chooses not to make them.
If things turn south, I have no doubt Russia would adopt the more NATO-ie “make the civilian population scream for mercy and then push them even harder” approach.
You might as well just write, “I am easily misled by propaganda”. Since the beginning of the war, the false prospect that Ukraine could win has been essential for manufacturing consent for every ask made by Kyiv and the US government, up to and including mass deindustrialization of regions of Europe and making the EU dollar dependent again. Just follow the sources of what you read and ask what they choose to report on vs not and who pays them. It will be revealing.
Save them from what? If China is in a world war you can kiss any semblance of normalcy in your life goodbye. You should fear these prospects, not LARP about how much you will win. These are all nuclear powers with greater industrial capacity.
Feel free to familiarize yourself with what shock therapy refers to in this context. No lectures from you about this if you don’t know something so basic. But, in short: the oligarchs were created by this shock therapy, of mass privatization, and it was done by US policy in the region. Modern Russia is a direct consequence of US shock therapy treatment.
Silly little fairy tales.
What about a disaster in Russia makes you excited?
Justice is not abstract, it has a grounding in ending injustice, creating accountability, and making whole. Given that you seem, unprompted, pretty stoked for war, I don’t accept your claim to not have thirst for blood.
Re: Europe being victims of imperialism, what on earth are you talking about? I assume you are referring to the Warsaw Pact but I can only guess at what comic book-esque brainworms are at work.
So you wish suffering on the Russian people? Sounds pretty Russophobic.
Ah, sounds like you hang out in ethnic supremacist spaces. It’s all making sense now.
This is hilarious. That anyone would stand up for Russia, one of the most hated states on the planet.
China especially, they would watch and wait till Russia was about to fail, and take their eastern territories, giving them both the land and resources they are so desperate for.
Russia is a country without meaningful allies (oh, I’m sorry, I forgot north Korea), in a world that hates them and wants to see them suffer for their past actions.
Poland alone would do anything for the chance to revisit Russia with a fraction of the pain they’ve caused over the centuries, and nobody would dare stop them.
This is inevitable, the Russian decline guarantees their predation and destruction at the hands of their growing neighbors.
Like I said, popcorn futures.
It’s like you’ve never even heard of BRICS+, which is having its annual conference in Russia right now.
You have no idea what is going on in the world. Russia has rather a lot of allies in fact, it’s just that none of them are imperial core countries.
You may not have noticed that most of the world is ignoring the international rules-based order’s sanctions. And not only almost all of the Global South, which represents ~85% of the world’s people and the bulk of the world’s production* and natural resources. Even many Global North countries are skirting their own sanctions to trade with Russia.
The Global North is largely sanctioning itself, and Europe is paying a very high price for it. In particular high energy prices, which is eroding their industrial base even more.
You’re running on pure, undiluted Western propaganda.
*Since the Global North in its infinite wisdom de-industrialized itself.
What no material grounding does to a person. There is a reason Russia is increasingly popular in the Sahel. Do you think it might also have something to do with Europe and material interest?
Though maybe I shouldn’t elaborate. It is probably good for the rest of the world if chauvinist Europeans falsely believe they represent it.
What, the trees and steppes? China’s material interests in Russia are in fossil fuels and their derivatives, industrial capacity for key industries (though China is overtaking), and as a market to sell things to.
Just repeating “European chauvinists represent the world” over and over again Lmao. At the moment European states are certainly acting against Russia, making yourself into weakened American dependencies and shooting the prospect of an independent Eurooe in the head to do it. But that is more manufactured consent than any real popular push. This is why Europe is taking a rightward turn against the liberal order that seeks to isolate Russia: y’all are paying a hefty price to do the US’ bidding.
This is, more or less, historical illiteracy.
Growing neighbors like what? Belarus? Azerbaijan? Kazakhstan? If you mean China you can just say China.
Though again you have the material developments flipped. Europe is selling itself to Americans, not getting one over on Russia. Europe still buys Russian fossil fuels they just do so at a significant mark-up via middle men.
Like I said, ethnic supremacist. And with that said, I won’t be giving you more attention.
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Get that homophobia out if here
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Of course there was and it is why their comment was removed.
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That is of course a homophobic insult
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Get that homophobia out of here.
I didn’t think that being murdered by Putin’s thugs is specifically Homophobic, but do let us know in the comments.
Like and Subscribe.
It seems pretty clear that the negative implication is putin’s regime abusing his authority for sexual favors (especially given all the mass rapes by russian forces in ukraine…) and not that said favors are bad because theyre gay. It’s telling that they assumed it was based in homophobia, though.
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Tragically unfunny deflection
Hmm yes, we all remember when noted liberal Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest geopolitical threat facing the US.
Mitt Romney is a liberal, yes.