- Harry Potter Fandoms will be a part of the Fediverse one way or the other. It’s better to shape this development rather than being overwhelmed by it.
- Harry Potter Fandoms are a huge opportunity for the Fediverse. Look at what the collaboration of Lego and Disney brought to Fortnite. People want to spend time in places, in which they feel familiar and welcomed. I’m not saying collaborating with big companies here, what I’m saying is: the Fediverse needs to be filled with life and we have to use that opportunity first, before others do.
- Don’t throw the opinions of J.K. Rowling and its fandom in one bucket. It’s one of the biggest in the world, there is a broad range of opinions and people.
- The Fediverse needs more projects that immediately make sense to people. Projects that you tell a person about, and they say: “Oh, yeah, that makes sense.” Mastodon in comparison to Twitter was such a thing: its billionaire proof. Everybody gets why that’s a good thing. A better, more open place to build Harry Potter fan sites could be another.
- The project (including other places like this that may follow) could also become another attractive place on the Fediverse for the open-source community. Who wouldn’t be excited to help build the world of Harry Potter?
All of this is of course up for discussion. I’m a very stubborn person but I’m also able to listen ;)
Edit: I removed “queer friendly” from the description. Its not a claim that I can fully uphold anyways. Instead, it has a no tolerancy policy against transphobia, which is more clear and probably easier to enforce.
Here is the link: https://diagonlemmy.social
Man, the gatekeeping is wild these days.
You’re allowed to like a story you grew up with as a child and also dislike its bigot author, they’re not mutually exclusive. Talking about Harry Potter doesn’t give Rowling magical transphobe powers; Voldemort logic doesn’t work in real life. The rightsholders have already taken great strides to distance the HP property from Rowling and adopt it to be more inclusive in spite of her TERF bullshit. It’s not a hate crime to like a story about child wizards anymore.
If people want to geek out about some books or movies they like, they should be allowed to do so without the insinuation that they’re by default enabling transphobia or something. But the beauty of the Fediverse is that your community has just as much right to exist as any other, so as long as you can maintain a healthy, hate-free community that isn’t posting a bunch of pro-Rowling bullshit, I say go for it. Anyone who would block your instance for merely existing probably isn’t worth your time, anyway.
I feel like most of what you said there can just be directly copy-pasted to the sidebar.
Let me pose a hypothetical to you then. If the transphobic rhetoric of JKR escalated, and transphobes took action, like just started doing even more harm to the trans community than they already have. At what point would you say “you know what, I’ve had enough of HP. It’s just distasteful to engage with this anymore”.
Let’s say a trans person enters, participates, and becomes a part of your HP fan community. What if they are directly, or even indirectly, harmed by JKR’s transphobic rhetoric? If you continue to engage with how great the content is, while ignoring what just happened, was that trans person, who was harmed, ever really part of your community? Or were you just paying lip service to your community’s inclusivity?
These hypotheticals can happen, it’s not even remotely outside the realm of possibility. At what point is engaging in HP fandom distasteful?
At what point is engaging in HP fandom distasteful?
I’d say when the material that makes up the HP franchise, itself, becomes distasteful. I’m not hugely invested into HP, but last I’ve seen of it, the franchise is LGBT-inclusive, directly in spite of Rowling. I see no reason why one shouldn’t be allowed to enjoy the story.
Yeah, Rowling may still profit from it. But the bitter pill is that she’s allowed to. People are entitled to make money from their IPs, it’s how society enables creatives. Just because somebody’s a shit person doesn’t mean they’re not allowed to earn a living. And realistically, she’s going to make money from it, anyway. Blocking a Lemmy instance has literally zero impact on Rowling’s bottom line, making the act little more than posturing.
The HP material, itself, is fine. And the HP community largely seems inclusive toward LGBT fans. I can’t think of any reason to consider liking it or talking about it to be distasteful. Rowling’s a TERF shitbag, and I think most of the HP community is generally onboard with that notion, too.
Idk the slavery, the goblins, the blatant love of all the worst parts of 19th century high British society… The world is pretty wild.
And she doesn’t really set those things up to challenge them in the books, you’re just supposed to accept that they’re there and be fine with them.
I’d say when the material that makes up the HP franchise, itself, becomes distasteful. I’m not hugely invested into HP, but last I’ve seen of it, the franchise is LGBT-inclusive, directly in spite of Rowling. I see no reason why one shouldn’t be allowed to enjoy the story.
It’s not about ”allowing” people to enjoy the story. I’m only pointing out consequences both intended and not intended incurred by choices to engage with, and inherently validate, an author who has engaged in transphobic hateful rhetoric.
Engaging in communities that reinforce a positive viewpoint of a story written by a transphobic hateful person is harmful to those communities in ways that are both overt and subtle. If you are okay with that, then at least don’t deny it.
Yeah, Rowling may still profit from it.
I never mentioned boycotting her material because it somehow might starve her of profit. You are obfuscating the argument from the main point. This farcical argument is often brought up as if the harm that the trans community experiences from JKR’s rhetoric is directly related to JKR’s wallet. It’s not. It’s her hate speech and the complacency around that hate speech that is the issue.
Rowling’s a TERF shitbag, and I think most of the HP community is generally onboard with that notion, too.
Obviously I agree on Rowling being a TERF shitbag. And in all truth, I’m sure the majority of the HP community aren’t blatant transphobes. The problem is not in any obvious transphobia exhibited by the HP community, but rather what an HP community inherently must ignore in order to enjoy the material. To continue to find the HP franchise tasteful, you must ignore the hateful rhetoric of it’s author, and the repercussions of said rhetoric.
Again, if you’re okay with that, then I’d encourage you to admit that to at least yourself.
Engaging in communities that reinforce a positive viewpoint of a story written by a transphobic hateful person is harmful to those communities in ways that are both overt and subtle.
How? If the community at large is against Rowing and is inclusive in defiance of her stance, then it would seem to me that they have enough self-awareness to take care of themselves and mitigate any of this nebulous harm.
Because continuing to engage with her content is a form of endorsement of her viewpoints (As mentioned in my previous comment, it is not inherently monetary support).
By saying, ”I enjoy the content. I don’t support her views, but I’m not going to go out of my way to condemn her, and I’m going to continue to engage in positive discourse about her work.", you are indicating “I don’t stand against trans bigotry unless publicly pressured to do so. I value the entertainment of her work more than dislike the harm my turning a blind eye to the harm the author causes with her hate speech.” Most commonly followed by “I’m just going to pretend it’s okay because it makes me uncomfortable to think otherwise. I’m not a bad person, and refuse to even acknowledge that I might be wrong here.”
This simple line of thought that is understandably easy to fall into is often used amongst outright hate groups, transphobes in this case, to empathize with people within this community.
With that empathy built off of a mutual dislike for the trans people making them feel bad for just wanting to like their little HP fan club, they form a bond of an us vs them mentality, where the “us"becomes less and less about their love of the content, and more and more about their dislike of the " other.”
Part of this discourse I’m engaging in here isn’t in the hope that somehow I can dissuade anyone from joining this community. People gonna do what they’re gonna do. But pointing out the potential pitfalls of founding and perpetuating this community is meant to instill in those that join an awareness of exactly WHY trans people and their allies are so upset that people are willing to turn a deaf ear to their voices when they tell you to think more carefully on this, to reconsider your position.
then it would seem to me that they have enough self-awareness to take care of themselves and mitigate any of this nebulous harm.
They don’t though. Because to mitigate the harm would mean having a more difficult discussion on how JKR’s works and awkward stumblings around inclusivity in her works have been nothing but tokenism. A facade of inclusivity made in bad faith. But that’s not what this community would ever want to do, because to do so would be to point out exactly what I’ve been arguing this entire time, that to ignore the fact thst you are celebrating the works created by a bigot means you silently are endorsing her, even if you vocally condemn her.
People claim to care, and heck, words matter. But words only matter inasmuch as what those words do, or inspire people to do. JKR’s words obviously have inspired a lot of people in a lot of different ways. But what have they ulimately inspired people to do really?
At best, they inspired people to get together and engage in conversations about a fantasy world, maybe come up with amazing stories of their own. At worst, they inspired some people to go out and make some poor trans person want to kill themselves.
The question I pose is, does the good really outweigh the bad? I don’t think so.
Because continuing to engage with her content is a form of endorsement of her viewpoints
This is a pretty significant leap that doesn’t seem realistic.
Lol. How so? Seems like a lot of people here singing the praises of the work while condemning the author have a pretty hard time squaring with themselves that maybe enjoying the work somehow makes trans people feel unseen, unheard?
Or maybe it’s just that you don’t actually care.
Would you stay at Trump hotel if you liked the scenery nearby?
Let me ask you this. Tell me what companies and what countries pass this purity test? Where is the line drawn? If someone spends money on leisure in the states for example, are they supporting racism, transphobia etc due to their moneys going to states like Florida, Texas etc? What about people that buy video games even though companies are known to work their employees into depression and have harmful ethics regarding female employees with sexual harassment? Are people that buy games endorsing that culture? How should those victims view fans that continue to make those companies money? What about companies that outsource their manufacturing processes to China? Some companies have put suicide nets to prevent employees from unaliving themselves. Many companies use China for manufacturing. By purchasing products are we endorsing that culture that has led to people taking their own lives?
Whoa, lots of whataboutisms going on here. I don’t think you’re making these questions in good faith, but hey, I’m always willing to field questions from z’haters.
If someone spends money on leisure in the states for example, are they supporting racism, transphobia etc due to their moneys going to states like Florida, Texas etc?
No, only if they knowingly support the businesses of those who are racists, transphobes, and other hate groups. Yeah, their tax money goes towards very hateful politicians, but as long as their beliefs don’t align with them, then they’re just people trying to survive in a state run by shitty politicians.
What about people that buy video games even though companies are known to work their employees into depression and have harmful ethics regarding female employees with sexual harassment?
Yeah, don’t play those games, and let those companies know why! Video games and entertainment aren’t inherently necessary to your survival, and if you knowingly purchase, and engage in positive rhetoric around those games, you are endorsing the bad practices that made that game possible. I know game devs just need to make a living in a shitty industry, but that industry will remain shitty unless you hit those corporate asshats where it hurts, and the only place it hurts is their wallets. It sucks because the devs don’t deserve to be dragged down monetarily with the asshats up top, but that’s the way the capitalist cookie crumbles right now, and the only moral choice in my view is to not buy those games at all.
Are people that buy games endorsing that culture?
If they buy those games specifically, while also knowing about the disgusting business practices that were engaged in during it’s production? Yes.
How should those victims view fans that continue to make those companies money?
As ignorant participants in a flawed corporate infrastructure in which they are trapped in at best, and uncaring knowing participants at worst. If these employees speak out, they are left without a means of a living wage income due to horrific minimum wage laws and no social safety net. I’ve met people in the video game industry, gotten beers with them, talked with them, most of them didn’t know how toxic it was going to be when they got into it. But they invested so much time, energy, and usually also money in their education, that they have little recourse now to abandon their job for my “purity test”, as you put it. I am sympathetic towards their plight because their livelihood and lifestyle depends on it. The same cannot be said of those wanting to create a little HP fan club.
What about companies that outsource their manufacturing processes to China?
Ah yes, the big elephant in the room, right? You can’t get away from Chinese products, their everywhere! You can’t live cheaply without China’s horrible work practices, right? All the while they additionally suppress public forms of dissent, have a literal dictator for life as a “president”, have displaced the Dalai Llama, have imprisoned dissidents in Hong Kong, refused to acknowledge the statehood of Tibet and Taiwan, not to mention the horrific treatment of the Uyghur Muslims. So yeah, it’s a shitty situation and in the US, many goods are difficult to find that don’t come from China, and most cheap goods are produced in China. So what about that?
My take on it is if you can do without Chinese products, do it. If you don’t need it for work or school, then yeah, you get a pass from my “purity test”. If you can’t afford to buy a more expensive product that doesn’t come from China, and again, you really actually need it (and don’t simply want it), then buy it. Then go out and condemn the Chinese Communist Party regardless. Condemn them loudly and in public, on the internet and IRL, as often as the subject comes up. Bring up the topic from time to time if it bothers you, and it should.
Ultimately your bad faith arguments are basically saying “There’s a lot of bad in the world, and if you do any of the things I mentioned, your hands aren’t clean! You’re not holier than me, you’re just like the rest of us, so STFU!” But that’s the whole thing, I’m as disgusted with this shit as the rest of you, the only difference is I refuse to STFU about it and say nothing.
I’m not blind to the fact that some people are in bad situations they can’t get out of. Capitalism as a whole and the history of racism, homophobia, and transphobia that have plagued human history has put us all in a shit situation that we can only play our small role in, and survive in. But that doesn’t mean things can’t change. Slavery was once thought a necessary evil that propped up the American economy during the 19th century, the Feminist movement was ridiculed as promoting an “unnatural” restructuring of the existing social hierarchy, Racism was silently accepted by the majority until the Civil Rights movements upended the status quo, and Homosexuality only became more socially accepted after the Stonewall Riots occurred and people died for their right to personhood. Societal change has never been solved by a comfortable nice conversation or sticking your head in the sand. It has always happened because disenfranchised people stood the fuck up, said something, and did something, and very often this had to happen many many times over before society at large got the fucking message, heard their voices, and changed (we’re still addressing all these issues on some level or another right now, and our rhetoric around these subjects continues to change, overall for the better, thanks to these initial challenges to the status quo).).
Now, you could argue that joining an HP fan club can do the same from the inside, but, obviously, I disagree. Many of these aforementioned movements didn’t succeed because they ignored the bigotry around them (though trust me, many of them wanted to, they tried, and they failed). These movements only succeeded when they called out the hatred, bigotry, and INDIFFERENCE for what it was over and over and over again.
So…what about your next whataboutism?
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When I was growing up, a lot of queer kids loved HP. There is a literal potion in the books that completely changes you to another person, including sex. I know a lot of millenial trans people who were able to come out referencing that potion and scene and how they could relate or wish they had that potion.
Imo, the books aren’t that good. For elementary and middle schoolers, sure, but I don’t think JK Rowling is a good author or world builder. I believe the IP/franchise relied heavily on the audience and Rowling backstabbed her queer fans. The same goes for the new game. It’s more open world drivel and I think the only way it got this big is because idiots kept talking about it.
With all of that said, having a community on lemmy that is about Harry Potter, and they are clearly pro-trans/queer, leftists/progressives, and ban any alt-right shitters then that is very good and powerful. It’s so powerful to get more HP fans in more leftist spaces so they can incept those ideas.
It’s so powerful to get more HP fans in more leftist spaces so they can incept those ideas.
That could prove to be harder than expected. I tried to reach out to r/harrypotter but they won’t let me put an advertisement post there :( Turns out that not so surprisingly, these fansites are kind of closed up themselves and until they open themselves up to AP, too, they will be very reluctant to any fediverse clones of them …
I’m now trying to reach out to other fansites. Let’s see.
That’s reddit. They don’t want their users to bleed and the mods that are left are scabs. It will be similar with other sites and it can feel like spam. The best thing you can do is populate the lemmy with HP info and hope it kicks off one day
You’re not hosting a Tucker Carlson server to praise alt-right values
They may as well, to the kids on lemmy, they’re the exact same thing. There’s absolutely no nuance here at all. The hive-mind dictates what governs the outrage.
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Divorcing the author from the work is rather challenging when that author is a living billionaire who makes money whenever you buy any kind of merchandise of their work. While pirating their trademarks without paying is in principle harmless, the moment you cross over into, say, paying money for Harry Potter Lego or Harry Potter Fortnite skins, you are then immediately funding the author’s hate campaigns
The instance name is clever, but I think you will find the concept embarrassing in hindsight. I would recommend not doubling down on the cognitive dissonance
People don’t seem to realize that their consumption of a product is seen by its beneficiaries.
Sure not YOU directly, but when someone sees “oh this place also set up something dedicated solely to the thing I made, they must really like me and approve of the things I do/say!” and others who agree with their shitty views think “oh they agree too, otherwise why promote it?”
Is it possible to separate the creatOR from the creatION? Yes. But not for everyone, and many of those who can’t will see your support as support of their own shitty ideals that match the creators’.
Sure, you may not be antisemitic, but the country club you go to for lunch sure is. Go ahead and pretend you’re not supporting them I guess.
Is it possible to separate the creatOR from the creatION? Yes. But not for everyone, and many of those who can’t will see your support as support of their own shitty ideals that match the creators’.
If it would be that easy, yes. But you ignore that H.P. does have a cultural value to it. Now you could try to re-build this, but first of all: it will be pretty hard to come up with something that no one feels offended by. And second of all: it will be pretty hard to come up with something that is equally popular.
For me, this is about post-structuralism vs. structuarlism. The current zeigeist is all about “deconstruction”, but if you de-construct everything, you are left with nothing. You need to build something new and that structure will always leave some room to deconstruct.
So I’m for leaving some of these cultural structures even if they are in parts worth overcoming. In case of the social web, which the Fediverse tries to create: it will not work without some kind of cultural structure on which it is build. People don’t want to spent time in a non-place, the Metaverse already failed because of that (at least its first try).
Post-structuralism is bad. Its anti-liberal and currently a big problem on the left imo.
I love to be able to reclaim works from their hateful authors, especially cultural ones. I’m a big fan of Lovecraft, and that dude was hateful. He makes JK Rowling look sweet and kindly. But it’s a lot easier to reclaim the narrative and make it a part of our culture when the author is literally dead.
Lovecraft is a cornerstone of modern fiction, despite being a bigot. We can acknowledge how he was a terrible person, even analyze it, but we know that our enjoyment of Lovecraftian fiction isn’t benefiting Lovecraft’s hateful causes, especially because the work is public domain.
In contrast, JK Rowling is not only still alive, she is active and vocal about her hatred, how she spends her money towards hate, and how she considers support of Harry Potter in light of her hate to be support of her vile views.
Consumption of media is not a passive action. Even if you do not actively give any money to the franchise, promoting the franchise encourages other people to do so, and then their money goes to fund hate.
I understand that HP is important to a lot of people. It was a cultural phenomenon. But we aren’t leaving it behind just because JK Rowling said something offensive. We’re leaving it behind because the author is actively using our consumption to fund hate and campaigning to deny rights to trans people.
There are plenty of other forms of media, new and old, that aren’t being piloted by known bigots. If you want a cultural backbone, using one that is currently controlled by a bigot will probably make a lot of trans people feel unwelcome at best and at worst, if HP continues to be a cultural phenomenon on a large scale JK Rowling will use the platform and the money to further the oppression of transgender rights.
I love to be able to reclaim works from their hateful authors, especially cultural ones. I’m a big fan of Lovecraft, and that dude was hateful. He makes JK Rowling look sweet and kindly. But it’s a lot easier to reclaim the narrative and make it a part of our culture when the author is literally dead.
Agreed. The athmosphere he creates is great but that dude was really problematic.
I understand that HP is important to a lot of people. It was a cultural phenomenon. But we aren’t leaving it behind just because JK Rowling said something offensive. We’re leaving it behind because the author is actively using our consumption to fund hate and campaigning to deny rights to trans people.
Sure, we find ourselves in a pickle, there. On the one hand, she is actively harming people and this will stay this way until it eventually becomes part of the public domain.
However, boycotting Harry Potter also comes as a price that, at least I would argue, also hurts minorities. Because the places create structure, which protects vulnarable people.
Why don’t we replace it with something else that does the same? Well, because in my opinion, Harry Potter culturally serves as a mythologization of the digital. People use it to understand the digital world. In past centuries, humans always made up stories and myths to understand complex concepts. The same thing is happening with the digital world and Harry Potter is one of the first to do this. It has a unique and central societal purpose.
That doesn’t mean that it can be improved, as can be seen in Hogwarts Legacy, which is kind of progressive, and also still slightly antisemetic, which is not so great, BUT I think overall the books still do much more good for vulnarable people than anything Rowling does against them, if she wants it or not.
So at the end of my line of thought, I always end up with two options: either create something new that does the same thing as H.P. while being more progressive but still hugely popular (which is hard to impossible), or to use H.P. and build on top of it to make it more modern (which is much easier).
What I would like to see more in these discussion is the question how EFFECTIVE Rowlings actions really are and if boycotting doesn’t hurt more than it helps.
Why don’t we replace it with something else that does the same?
This, it is our duty as people with good taste in media to promote better and less popular books to children. Earthsea by leguin, his dark materials by Pullman etc. hundreds of better books out there filling the same niche
But none of them is anywhere near the popularity of Harry Potter. In the german-speaking area, his dark material and Earthsea are even less common.
idk anything about german literature, i’m russian :( but when i was small i really liked the books momo and neverending story
Best of Luck to you. I find that a creator is indelibly linked to their creation, while they are still living (and their beliefs definitely color it long after they are dead). So, while Rowling draws breath, I endeavor to give her neither profit nor advertising. I do absolutely understand the draw that the fandom has, despite the very problematic aspects of the setting - I’m not going to shit on what people enjoy, though I think that acknowledging the problematic is important.
More than anything, I see that there are a lot of extremely creative people in the fandom. This is easy to prove. You just need to look at all of the cosplayers over the years that have made their own costumes from scratch. I hope that some channel that creative energy into making something better and more inclusive (that doesn’t fund hate against trans people).
love this! i’m trans and honestly harry potter was such a big reason why i’m still here. it was one of the only things i loved when i was still in the closet and between starkid, leaky, and pottercast, it resulted in making some amazing friends. fuck rowling but i’ll never forget harry potter <3
harry potter is the trio and the fandom not the author
Man. People need to learn how to ignore stuff they don’t like or use the block button.
Hey, Good Luck with your endeavors. Beware of mob brigading and “canceling” you. There is already !harrypotter@literature.cafe Make sure you have at least one or two moderators with additional technical sysadmin that will keep the instance up.
I think the biggest challenge at the start will be keeping community alive. I know from experience that if you are the only person posting it is disheartening, and it leads to very fast burnout.
I know from experience that if you are the only person posting it is disheartening, and it leads to very fast burnout.
Very true
Well, as always I’ll recommend our small existing community !harrypotter@literature.cafe
Literature.cafe is a lovely instance, Gabe the admin is a very nice person.
Good luck with your instance, I’ll probably visit
I second that, happy to hear Gabe is still around, gotta head over there!
Since he is being brought up, you should read exactly what Gabe said about the HP community. Clearly seems uncomfortable by the entire concept.
Gabe was also okay with us keeping the community there. I asked him on Matrix. If you want evidence, they appointed one of my alts as mod, which he shouldn’t have done if he wasn’t okay with the community.
We were ready to move the community elsewhere if Gabe would have preferred us to.
Did this even went through?
Yes your post came through!
Wishing you best of luck with your server. You will need strict moderation to keep transphobia out.
it has a no tolerancy policy against transphobia
Does this include discussion of Rowlings current work like Bad Blood?
I ask because it gets to the core of why “separate art from artist” can’t apply when you are promoting the works of active bigots. Reading Poe or Seuss harms no one, but starting a community to promote upcoming projects from a bigots, such as the TV show or the games.
It feels HP fans want to have their cake and eat it to, you can’t be a trans ally AND be promoting the works of someone who uses that capital to actively harm trans folk. Which is why so many trans people are asking you to stop.
Its H.P. themed not Rowling themed. If they want to talk about Bad Blood in the literature section, sure. Like on all other literature instances, too. If its explicitly transphobic, its not.
Okay, but can you understand how that logic isn’t very consistent? Bad Blood itself is itself explicitly transphobic (a male killer dressing as a woman specfically to stalk women in the bathroom), it’s inherently biased bigoted propaganda. So discussion of the text would be allowed in literature section. Just not if it were transphobic?
You are trying to have it both ways. It’s easy enough to say you won’t allow transphobic content, but not to understand what that is nor listen trans folk pointing it out.
I mean frankly, you are gonna have the community regardless what I or any other trans person say, which is your right. Just please acknowledge that this isnt how an ally would act. It’s actively cognitive dissonance to have a nontransphobic discussion of Bad Blood or any of Rowlings work.
So discussion of the text would be allowed in literature section. Just not if it were transphobic?
No, I meant that it wouldn’t be put to discussion if it were transphobic. It would need to be decided just like for any other book. I just don’t want to pre-empitively outrule the book because I don’t know it AND because the situation hasn’t arised yet.
But yeah, we can assume that it would happen. Its a fair question. Probably I or the mods would have to do some reading and then decide. But that holds for any controverse book.
Now, the question is, if in doubt, would I rather ban the book discussion or not, I would be on the side of allowing it, because banning books from discussion is a very radical step and then see if any transphobic comments pop up around it.
I mean frankly, you are gonna have the community regardless what I or any other trans person say, which is your right.
That’s true, it was never up for discussion; I mean, it was some work to put it up. But I’m interested in your opinions around it. Just because it will not be a safe place for queer folks (I have neither the resources nor the skills), it can still be a generally welcoming place to them (hopefully).
I wanna share with you something a therapist said to me a few years ago, a trans black man. (his race shouldn’t matter, but when I have talked about this story before I am told its important context). Are you familiar with mammy dolls? Wiki has pictures at the bottom and google will bring up a ton of stuff. You can go to basically any thrift store and probably find some.
Anyways, he told me that when he would go to an acuiqtances house some of them would have these dolls, usually little salt’n’pepper shakers. And how seeing those items would radically change how he viewed that person. He said it was common for his host to realize his reaction to them, and talk about how it was a family heirloom and that they aren’t racist. But, if an individual person is fine with a little racial sterotype out on their dinner table, Dmitri told me it didn’t really matter what they said next. Because he knew they were willing to look the other way when it comes to racism, and that if it ever came to it, that person probabbly couldn’t be counted on to help if he were the subject of some sort of racial abuse. Very much the same way people defend the confederate flag, it’s easy enough to say you aren’t racist but if you can’t even look at your own actions, how could you possibly speak to others?
I am glad you are interested in not having a transphobic space, but I need you to understand that having a harry potter is inherently looking the other way on transphobia. It tells the world that it’s not a deal breaker and you can work around it because you have good memories of the piece in past. It’s easy to say you don’t agree with Rowlings views but if you can’t even stop from celebrating her work, then how much can any one really expect of you to be an ally? The simplest ask of “please stop promoting bigots” is apparently too much to ask.
You aren’t morally required to be a trans ally I suppose, but it’s important to me that you understand it’s an oxymoron to have a harry potter community that is welcome for trans people. You can absolutely find black people with confederate flags and you can find the same for trans people liking HP, but they are absolutely the minority and the vast majority of those group find those sorts of things threatening. Seeing how easy it is for groups of people to ignore that in favor of a nostalgia, reminds us how close to the edge of society we are.
It’s not your fault that harry potter communities make me feel unsafe. But it is a common trigger for TONS of trans people about anxiety, dread and fear for the future. I’m sure you have never been in a trans support group, but please understand that HP is brought up often because its something that cause stress in the overwhelming majority of trans folk. I personally have been harassed by people wearing HP shirts, even if you and others are willing to look the other way on it, you must understand that other TERFs go to HP because of the transphobia.
But I’m interested in your opinions around it.
So there you go. Thank you for listening to my opinion, you are of course always well within your rights to do or read whatever you like. I just ask that you please stop promoting, financially support and publicly celebrating bigots. I would say the same thing to fans of The Turner Diaries and of Finders-Keepers.
Look, first of all I’m not trans, I don’t know how its like, and you have my sympathy. The inzident with the H.P. fans harassing you sounds horrible and I’m sorry it happened to you.
Independent from this, I don’t think the world of H.P. itself is transphobic, if it was written by a different author there would still be things to critize but not more than many other childrens books. Also, I think that the fandom can free itself from Rowling in the sense that it becomes an independent thing from the author. For example the Lord of the Rings Series by Amazon Prime did some central things different than Tolkien. I think that’s how cultural development happens in contrast to just boycotting it. On the other hand, while Rowling still earns money from it and spends it for bad causes, there will always be a moral dilemma. But I’m willing to take the consequences of that moral dilemma in this case, because I think the H.P. fandom could be really good for the Fediverse and grow it, and a big Fediverse will be good for the world.
Additionally I have to add that, imo, throwing fashists and neo-nazis like David Duke into one bucket with Rowling is problematic, if not borderline totalitarian (and also just tasteless), because she simply isn’t. She is very conservative, but not a fascist. Fascists see certain groups of people as less human or not even humans at all, Rowling always said her arguments have nothing to do with the humans themselves, which is a crucial thing.
Thank you for the reply and for continuing to talk with me about this.
imo, throwing fashists and neo-nazis like David Duke into one bucket with Rowling is problematic, if not borderline totalitarian (and also just tasteless), because she simply isn’t.
I understand why you think I am flying off the handle and comparing two things that aren’t the same. But there are a couple points I want you to keep in mind,
A)
Rowling herself has actively promoted self described fascists on multiple occasions. Matt Walsh in the US who repeatedly calls for, and his followers commit acts of violence at hospitals.
And Posie Parker in the UK. Who has a large nazis following her show up at her protests. And rowling herself was critical of the counter protesters at faccistic events, while not speaking to the Nazis there.
Posie has actively called for her supports to carry guns in to womens bathrooms to look for trans folk, clearly calling for violence.
“I’m talking about you dads, who maybe carry – I think that’s what you say, I’m so down with the American lingo. Maybe you carry, maybe you don’t. Maybe you consider yourself a protector of women, maybe you’re that sort of man. Maybe you have a daughter or a mother, or a wife, maybe you have a sister. Maybe you have friends, maybe you just think women are human and you don’t need any absolute connection with them to feel compelled to protect us. I think you should start using women’s toilets, men.”
B)
TERF transphobia is deeply rooted in the history fascism, the first books the nazis book burned were at a queer college studying trans topics. According to Nazi’s, trans people are a jewish plot.
The era of extreme Jewish intellectualism is now at an end. The breakthrough of the German revolution has again cleared the way on the German path
-Jospeh Grobels who gave a speech at the burning.
C)
“One thing that it’s crucial to understand about the far right, the extreme right, the Nazi guys, is the way that they obsessively see absolutely fucking everything as a Jewish plot,” says author and hate researcher Talia Lavin, author of Culture Warlords: My Journey into the Dark Web of White Supremacy. “And the existence of trans people is a huge one.”
Rowling is an active part of a violent fascist movement both from a historical sense, from her current actions and in the books she writes. Harry Potter has many antisemitic tropes in the goblins, overtly racist names like the black wizard Shacklebolt and transphobia by repeatedly describing female villains to have “man hands”. There is ample evidence to put JK Rowling, Matt Walsh, Posie Parker and David Duke in the same fascist basket.
Which is why, symbols from those people make marginalized people feel uncomfortable. When you say you want a trans friendly harry potter space, it sounds like you are hanging a confederate flag because of your heritage and ignoring the ways that symbol is being used to harm people. I am not the only trans person I know that has been targeted by people wearing harry potter merch, they look for us. We know the community builders, while maybe not transphobic look the other way as it’s not a dealbreaker for the book. It’s hard not to wonder where else they look the other way. Which is why the community inherently makes me feel unsafe, and I think creating one is not how someone who supports our rights to exist would act.
Ok, so she allies with some weird people. Didn’t know that and its not great, but it doesn’t make her a fascist. Being a fascist corresponds to a fascist mindset. I think her books, opinions and also the fantastic beast films show that she has liberal mindset, and she is strongly against fascism.
But I hear you, I guess the whole cultural fight has a bigger urgency for you. I’m also panicking that we really drift towards fascism again. But for me, I analyze the problem different and therefore draw different conclusions.
For me, this is about a bigger conflict within the democratic forces in general and especially within the Left. For years now, the common mindset was that of deconstruction, that of dismanteling structures and hierarchies. However, turns out that if you see in every structure and hierarchy the possibility for “colonialism” and “micro-aggressions” and you dismantel that on and on, you end up with no structures, which, surprise: leads to evil, anti-democratic structures to develop. For me, the Post-Colonialist-Left has lost all credibility after the terrorist attack by the Hamas on Israel, because many of them openly appreciated or at least downplayed it. Antisemitism is a problem on the left.
So yeah, Rowling has a point that anti-liberal-tendencies have grown over the years, as holds for a limiting of free speech (Salman Rushdie also signed the letter that she signed a few years ago calling for more free speech). But for me, this comes from the post-colonalist-left, which is currently kind of shattered anyways (and also right-wing-populism, of course). However, Rowling argues that the queer/trans movement is anti-liberal and that’s also were she loses me, because thats a talking-point of the right, on which, like you said, they only too eagerly jump on. In russia, they have declared LGBTQ as a terrorist group, which is really bad for the people there.
But the forces that are pro-democracy quickly need to unite again. In this sense, from my point of view, by building something that is not perfect from the beginning, I do something to strengthen liberal democracy, which is also good for trans people.
So…where is it? Where is the link? I don’t see a link.
Rowling is an hell of a woman. She’s donated more money than we will ever earn and doesn’t dodge her taxes.
She lost her billionaire status a few years ago after donating between 160 to 200 million quid!
Say what you want about her views on gender, but she has done more good for the world than most.
Introduced an entire generation to reading. Millions of kids who weren’t big readers picked up lifetime habits!
Started or donated to many charities. Including the Multiple Sclerosis Society Scotland, The Maggie’s Centres for Cancer Care, Doctors Without Borders, and more. She founded the Children’s High Level Group, known as Lumos, which works to “end the systematic institutionalization of children across Europe and help them find safer, more caring places to live.” She has also contributed to various other charitable causes through her philanthropic trust, Volant.
Helped save female Afghani lawyers from the taliban.
Funded the Anne Rowling Regenerative Neurology clinic in Edinburgh.
And rather more contentiously, has stuck to her guns about the areas where she believes sex should take precedence over gender identity in the face of abuse, rape and death threats.
And now employment tribunals are ruling again and again that gender critical views are perfectly reasonable to hold and in fact are legally protected.
we just tolerate terf apologia now?
Yeah that doesn’t mean what you think it means.
it does.
I mean of course you, the person misusing that term, think that.
i’m using it correctly
The responses in this thread highlight my point. If you don’t have explicit rules to stop that shit in its tracks (which you don’t), you aren’t queer friendly, because queer folk can’t exist there without being told that transphobia is fine actually, as long as you like the person doing it.
The responses in this thread highlight my point.
What responses? The ones who say they can separate the content from the creator?
If you don’t have explicit rules to stop that shit in its tracks (which you don’t)
Here are the rules. The first rule is about not attacking groups of people. So yeah.
Don’t bother, the person you’re replying to has a storied history of notoriously bad takes, such as “porn of petite women is the same thing as CSAM” (paraphrased), and deleting comments that call out their awful takes in communities/instances they run. They aren’t a sensible person.
Bro it’s fucking Ada. You can safely ignore them, they get bitchy about everything.
I personally think it’s a very bad idea and politics will catch up on you eventually. But whatever floats your boat.
I’m sorry, but as a cis heterosexual man who has trans friends and has turned away from all things Harry Potter and JK Rowling in utter disgust, this strikes me as attempting to ignore the obvious transphobia of the TERF author in the hope of keeping your head in the sand and residing in a place of nostalgia solely because transgendered people aren’t the majority.
I get your desire to grow the Fediverse, but if you want to create a community around a fandom, perhaps you should choose a piece of media that embraces inclusion rather than one that is simply popular?
Stop looking into your past fandoms with nostalgic rose tinted glasses, acknowledge that you can’t have Hogwartz without the hatred, and find media that is straight up more inclusive.
Holy fuck. I like Harry Potter and want to speak about it, so what? Because JK made a few announcements? Words do damage and I get that it’s already hard being trans and she isn’t helping. But acting like this is just building more walls, dividing an already fucked humankind for no good reason.
I respect anyone’s choice to be trans, but then you’ll have to let me discuss HP without judgement as well. And if you won’t, then you’re the problem. Because I will still respect anyone trans, but I won’t respect you.
Sure, the human race is particularly divided right now, but trying to create a fan group around a brand founded by an outspoken outright TERF who has done real harm to a marginalized group deserves to be called out for what it is: a group willing to turn a blind eye to hate speech.
Saying we can somehow separate the good the work has done for some people, from the harm the author has done to the specific minority of trans people, is naive at best, and sympathizing with bigotry at worst.
Think about the community you’re trying to create. It is inherently anti-trans, by the very nature of it’s association with the author.
But hey, if that’s the kind of company you’d like to keep, then at least we all know who you like to associate with.
It’s not inherently anti-trans. How can you say that, can’t you see what OP wrote? And then you’re trying to put a stample on me for not being a good enough supporter of the cause, so bring out the guillotines! Sometimes I feel like the trans communities greatest enemy is it’s strongest proponents.
You can’t speak for every trans person, neither can I. But if you think no one trans likes HP, or think that if someone trans likes HP they aren’t really trans, then you can fuck right off. And if that’s not what you’re saying, then let it be?
People are weird, let them. If they aren’t actively trashing other people they aren’t doing harm. Stop being upset about things no one’s yet to do to you. You just come of as an leftist incel.
Sorry, but no. You can sit by the sidelines and cause harm. It’s been done many times over throughout history, and sadly I’m sure we’ll see it again. I’m literally witnessing a bunch of people ignore the plight of a marginalized group right here, right now.
I’m calling it out because it’s exactly that. It’s literally the least amount of effort I can put in while still doing what I think is right, not fucking nothing, and certainly not engaging in a community that is transphobe adjacent.
Again, company you keep reflects on you, ignoring a problem can be just as harmful as actively causing harm under certain circumstances.
Are these those specific circumstances? Maybe not. But I’ll be damned if I don’t call out indifference to suffering when I see it, which is exactly what this is.
I’m not speaking for all trans people. I’m speaking for me. It’s the internet, try and stop me. If any person, trans or otherwise, wants to engage with me and argue why I’m wrong and presents a solid argument, I’d be more than happy to hear it.
But so far, all I’m hearing is a bunch of pearl clutching rhetoric dancing around the fact that to support HP in any way shape or form can only help JKR, and by proxy, her transphobic agenda. If that’s what you all want to do, then go ahead. But don’t pretend that’s not what’s happening.
I get it, you think you’re doing good, I’d ask you to reconsider that. You’re claiming someone is doing something no one has even considered yet. Judge the result, not your idea of what they’re trying to do. You’re painting a monster no one else sees.
I won’t answer your second post to me since it wasn’t targeted at you, and I’m lazy.
Judge the result, not your idea of what they’re trying to do.
Yeah. That wait and see approach hasn’t usually worked out for minorities…
You’re painting a monster no one else sees.
No. I’m pointing out that due to nostalgia and a desire for community, HP fans willing to turn a blind eye to the hateful rhetoric of JKR are engaging with transphobic communities, even if the community rules attempts to discourage outright hate speech. If you can’t see how that’s harmful, you’re blind.
I won’t answer your second post to me since it wasn’t targeted at you, and I’m lazy.
Fair enough, though I’m happy to engage in discourse on that point as well.
Perfectly said
So where’s do trans people that still like Harry Potter fit into your equation?
Should we just ignore what they think?
Trans people are allowed to make their own choices about how they deal with Rowlings transphobia.
