• rustydrd@sh.itjust.works
      292·
      9 months ago

      Then again, am I really using these Haskell libraries? I just want to use pandoc. I love Arch, but the organization of the official repos is sometimes suboptimal.

      • Goddard Guryon@sopuli.xyz
        8·
        9 months ago

        Last I checked (which was some time ago), pandoc-bin doesn’t require the haskell dependencies. I saved quite some installation time (and screen space during installation) by switching.

        • rustydrd@sh.itjust.works
          4·
          9 months ago

          Used pandoc-bin before and agree it’s more compact, but I had some issues with citation management recently, so went back to standard pandoc.

      • areyouevenreal@lemm.ee
        12·
        9 months ago

        Someone has never done software development or worked on a build pipeline and it shows. Obviously complex software has lots of dependencies especially compiling from source.

    • JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl
      4·
      9 months ago

      I definitely use the previous 10 versions of electron that I definitely didn’t completely forget to uninstall.

      In unrelated news, by root partition is now about 2GB lighter.

  • Diplomjodler@feddit.de
    665·
    9 months ago

    I never understand this obsession with “bloat” when you can buy a 1 TB SSD for € 50.

    • nitrolife@rekabu.ru
      401·
      9 months ago

      or you can’t buy if you’re not successful enough or you’re in the wrong country. For example, in my country, the minimum cost of a 1TB SSD is about $85 and a salary of $2,000 is considered a very successful salary at the upper limit

    • jack@monero.town
      282·
      9 months ago

      It’s not about storage. It’s about complexity getting back at you, for example not knowing what caused a problem because multiple programs are stepping on each others feet

    • Great Blue Heron@lemmy.ca
      131·
      9 months ago

      For me it’s not about the size, it’s about the understanding. I’d really like to understand what everything on my system does and why it’s there. It seems impossible with modern systems. Back in the '90s I needed a secure email relay - it had lilo, kernel, init, getty, bash, vi, a few shell utils (before busybox…), syslogd and sendmail. I’m not sure any more as it was a long time ago, but I think I even statically linked everything so there was no libc. I liked that system.

      • NaoPb@eviltoast.orgEnglish
        1·
        9 months ago

        I’d like to know more about what my system does, so I can fix it when it breaks.

    • cevn@lemmy.world
      8·
      9 months ago

      For me it was a problem with update frequency and how long they would take. Once i got rid of my flatpaks and moved to stable firefox i update once a week instead of daily now and it takes seconds instead of minutes. Probably also solvable with auto updates.

    • lemmyingly@lemm.ee
      3·
      9 months ago

      It seems to be seen across all platforms.

      What I find interesting is that no one is asking about the quality of code, nor do they seem concerned about the dependencies but they do care about that one package/app/program of any size they see and don’t immediately know why it’s there.

    • SeekPie@lemm.ee
      41·
      9 months ago

      So you have a folder and need to find a specific file from it. Would it be faster to find the file when there are 5 folders or 500?

      • cybersandwich@lemmy.world
        81·
        9 months ago

        You realize you don’t have to backup the actual “bloated” programs. Just maybe their configs and any files those programs generate that you’d like to keep, right?

        • NaoPb@eviltoast.orgEnglish
          2·
          9 months ago

          I remember what my idea of making backups was when I was a wee grasshopper.

          Making a backup of the whole OS instead of just the configs and user files.

          I have come a long way since then.

        • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nlEnglish
          31·
          9 months ago

          That’s committing the cardinal sin of cherrypicking your backup contents. You may end up forgetting to include things that you didn’t know you needed until restore time and you’re creating a backup that is cumbersome to restore. Always remember: you should really be creating a restore strategy rather than a backup strategy.

          As a general rule I always backup the filesystem wholesale, optionally exclude things of which I’m 100% sure that I don’t need it, and keep multiple copies (daylies and monthlies going some time back) so I always have a complete reference of what my system looked like at a particular point in time, and if push comes to shove I can always revert to a previous state by wiping the filesystem and copying one of the backups to it.

    • Agility0971@lemmy.world
      1·
      9 months ago

      It’s not always about storage. It can also be more processes that drains battery, more attack vectors etc.

    • Ziixe@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      5·
      9 months ago

      This, MFers will have the most top spec computer and worry about bloat while I install random shit for fun on my 320gb had drive that’s also my boot drive on my core 2 duo computer with 3 gigs of ram that struggles to run firefox and thunar at the same time (also cinnamon is the best running on my computer from my testing, xfce is laggy af and I’m not even going to mention kde, bspwm or any other since the, either lag beyond usability (KDE) or just straight up crash my computer into tty when i try to launch them (bspwm), one massive note is that I’m using software rendering since the GPU on the core 2 duo is struggling with even drawing the boot screen)

      Literally have probably a ton of overlap software from installing the desktop environments and other random (well not very random, stuff I used on windows before) software that I don’t bother googling the deleting commands since apt installed them all as snaps because I never noticed in my first three months of use, fuck you Ubuntu, Xubuntu and all other derivatives, this shit makes me not want to use Ubuntu ever again (not like i can, my pc is fucked and no other drive is bootable, i can’t even boot an install usb)

      • DickFiasco@lemm.ee
        1·
        9 months ago

        You might want to check out the i3 tiling window manager. Shit’s under 50MB and makes every other DE I’ve ever used feel bloated and laggy.

        • Ziixe@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          2·
          9 months ago

          Yeah, I’m not actually not very into the tiling window manager thing, I tried bspwm just for the sake of wanting to try one but I since lost interest, I’ll keep it in mind though and maybe come back and try it one day

      • mojofrododojo@lemmy.worldEnglish
        1·
        9 months ago

        to be fair - core 2 duo computer with 3 gigs of ram - you’re using the desktop I had in 2009. At some point, do you think that it’s time to upgrade? no, wait, I think I had a core 2 quad actually…

  • Telodzrum@lemmy.world
    461·
    9 months ago

    Every person who comments about “bloat” in their install should be required to preface their post or comment with a full definition of “bloat.”

    This shit is obnoxious.

  • jroid8@lemmy.world
    39·
    9 months ago

    You can use window managers instead of DEs. While I prefer DEs because how much features they have you may not need these features

    • OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml
      382·
      9 months ago

      Step 1. Install the most secure, pure, minimalist Linux distro

      Step 2. Get frustrated at the complications

      Step 3. Give up and go back to Windows

      • a story I’ve seen happen more than once
      • CubitOom@infosec.pubEnglish
        211·
        9 months ago

        I’ve had the exact opposite experience on arch, mostly because of the arch wiki.

        1. Install arch using the arch wiki for reference
        2. If an issue arises, consult the arch wiki
        3. Document, contribute, and help others
      • pizzazz@lemmy.world
        10·
        9 months ago

        For me unfortunately it has been Step 1 install literally the most universally compatible distro possible

        Step 2 audio drivers craps out. No fix is available. Trying to apply workarounds completely Bork the system

        Step 3 install again. graphics driver is problematic, refresh it giving it MOS permissions. I miss the MOS permission screen at the reboot. Look for how to do obtain that option again. No easy way to do it at all. Bork the system again

        Step 4 install again. Notice touch screen support is completely useless, and pen is not supported.

        Step 5 Ask myself if keeping a 1200$ computer with tinny audio, no graphic hardware acceleration and a half functional display can be justified in any way. It can’t.

        Step 5. Back to windows. Bloated, but it works.

        Unfortunately system support is still very iffy on some models. I’d really like to embrace the distro life but can’t.

        • woelkchen@lemmy.world
          2·
          9 months ago

          Without claiming that I would be able to fix any problems, I’m curious which hardware that is. In all honesty I can’t remember the actual audio driver ever crapping out in the last 15 or so years. I find this fascinating and like to know more.

          The set of hardware I’ve had most problems with had been various types of WiFi adapters from Realtek and Broadcom.

      • woelkchen@lemmy.world
        3·
        9 months ago

        I’ve seen “Step 3: Buy a Mac” plenty of times for exactly that audience. They like tinkering as a college student and when they enter the working world they realize that tinkering all the time impedes their financial bottom line. Then they go from Linux fans to hardcore Linux haters (“it’s for playing around, not serious work”), even though a convenience distro like Fedora would have solved all their problems in an instant.

      • Allero@lemmy.today
        2·
        9 months ago

        Step 1. Install user-friendly Linux distro

        Step 2. Get frustrated at the complications

        Step 3. Try to check back on Windows

        Step 4. Get completely disgusted, realize just HOW much bloated and slow and terrible Windows is

        Step 5. Learn Linux-fu and live happy ever after

        That’s my path

      • mrmanager@lemmy.today
        1110·
        9 months ago

        Go back to windows is not an option, it’s a really horrible system. I dont see how people can use it without blowing their brains out.

        • sum_yung_gai@lemm.ee
          195·
          9 months ago

          It just works. I don’t want to have to invest time in making my os work. I want to spend my time on my projects(which I use wsl for)

          I totally understand the desire and satisfaction of having complete control over your os but a lot of people just want to be able to do simple stuff like game and browse the web which windows does just fine in my experience.

          • Allero@lemmy.today
            2·
            9 months ago

            I’d argue Linux falls short on audience that needs a little more than browsing and simple games, but are themselves a little less than sysadmins. That’s the audience that is really hurt by the transition. The rest (simple as well as power users) should be just fine.

            Even still, with Windows being the mainstream option, it just goes as a no-brainer and a default solution for the majority of people, regardless of how good or bad it is.

      • psycho_driver@lemmy.world
        11·
        9 months ago

        Oh I’m sure. People get used to something because it’s forced on them and change is hard. Also, ADD is at all time highs thanks to portable devices.

        People who are abducted and held captive often experience Stockholm Syndrome once they find themselves set free.

  • Zozano@lemy.lol
    301·
    9 months ago

    Most people in this thread don’t get it.

    You know how some people compete to see who can get Doom to run on the craziest platforms, like a calculator?

    Installing Arch with the fewest packages is like that. There’s something oddly satisfying about stripping everything back to the most basic level - to make things work for you within the most constrictive environment you enforce for yourself.

    It’s like eating a spicy shellfish dinner and super gluing your asshole closed.

  • Pohl@lemmy.world
    251·
    9 months ago

    Started playing with arch this week for the first time. Got a pretty good laugh when I realized that I forgot to install a dhcp client and had to boot the install media again to add networking.

    I appreciate what they’re doing and I’m going to keep poking at it, but my first impression is that philosophy is driving and the utility is in the back seat.

    • DrRatso@lemmy.ml
      9·
      9 months ago

      So just run archinstall Personally as a relative newbie I found arch a lot easier to deal with than fedora and ubuntu, both of which have had me in dependency hell on previous attempts to switch to linux. Not only that but I have a much better idea of what makes up my system.

      • Telodzrum@lemmy.world
        6·
        9 months ago

        I think it’s important to do it all manually once. But, after that there’s no reason not to use archinstall, at all.

    • bluetoque@lemmy.caEnglish
      4·
      9 months ago

      It’s definitely a philosophy, and you have to understand the implications. But I’m not sure utility is in the back seat. It’s just that you personally own your own config.

  • A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.worldEnglish
    251·
    9 months ago

    As someone who primarily uses Windows, Ubuntu didn’t feel like it had any bloat when I tried it.

  • cally [he/they]@pawb.socialEnglish
    12·
    9 months ago
    > Install NixOS
> Learn about Nix
> Organise your dotfiles
> Learn about flakes
> Organise your dotfiles
> Learn about modularisation
> Organise your dotfiles
> ...
    • woelkchen@lemmy.world
      4·
      9 months ago

      It is bloat if dependencies aren’t defined properly and the packager defines a too broad set of dependencies.

      (Disclaimer: I don’t use Arch myself but I am a packager of a small “scratch my own itch” but public repository for another distribution.)

      • rickyrigatoni@lemm.ee
        1·
        9 months ago

        Yeah I remember that one time I tried to uninstall Banshee because I didn’t want it and Ubuntu’s repos were set up that it by default just tried to uninstall GNOME entirely. And it was GNOME 2 so uninstalling it was a bad thing at the time.