Sometimes I’ll run into a baffling issue with a tech product — be it headphones, Google apps like maps or its search features, Apple products, Spotify, other apps, and so on — and when I look for solutions online I sometimes discover this has been an issue for years. Sometimes for many many years.

These tech companies are sometimes ENORMOUS. How is it that these issues persist? Why do some things end up being so inefficient, unintuitive, or clunky? Why do I catch myself saying “oh my dear fucking lord” under my breath so often when I use tech?

Are there no employees who check forums? Does the architecture become so huge and messy that something seemingly simple is actually super hard to fix? Do these companies not have teams that test this stuff?

Why is it so pervasive? And why does some of it seem to be ignored for literal years? Sometimes even a decade!

Is it all due to enshittification? Do they trap us in as users and then stop giving a shit? Or is there more to it than that?

  • NABDad@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Most people tend to buy the imperfect cheap product rather than the better, more expensive product.

    If we refused to buy crap, they wouldn’t make it. If we refused to buy it, they couldn’t make it.

    They sell us crap because collectively we prefer it.

    • otp@sh.itjust.works
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      3 months ago

      But in tech, there’s often a lot of overlap in the high-end and crap…at least in terms of issues.

      Expensive, high-end products can sometimes just be frustrating, or just lacking features that’d seem obvious.

  • mosiacmango@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    The difficulty of keeping something working scales exponentially as its complexity grows. Something 1x compexay take 1y effort, but 2x complex is 10y effort, 3x complex is 100y, on and on.

    Phones/computers/apps are at hilarious levels of complex now, and even 100k people running flat out can barely maintain the illusion that they “just work.” Add enshittification heaping its intentionally garbage experience onto the unintentional garbage experience that is modern computing, and it’s just gotten stupid.

    • davel@lemmy.ml
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      3 months ago

      Seriously. Millions of things have to go right for your consumer electronics or software experience work seemingly flawlessly. Think about the compounding probabilities of it. It’s a monument to human achievement that they work as well as they do.

      • shalafi@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Been saying that about the internet for 30 years. It’s a damned miracle it works at all and people whine and cry about every little hitch.

      • tomkatt@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        It’s a monument to human achievement that they work as well as they do at all.

        FTFY.

      • mycodesucks@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        It doesn’t help that every new generation adds a new blackbox abstraction layer with little to no end-user benefit, the possibility of duplicated functionality and poor implementation, security concerns, poor support, and requiring a flashy new CPU with system crashing speed tricks to maintain a responsive environment through 12 levels of interpreters.

          • mycodesucks@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            No, the OSI model is fine.

            I’m talking more about sandboxing an interpreted app that runs a container that runs another sandboxed interpreted app, both running their own instances of their interpreter with their own dependencies and accessible through a web interface that is accessible through yet another container running a web server that is running in Python with a virtual environment despite being the only Python app on the container, which is then connected to from another sandboxed tab on a sandboxed browser on your machine.

            But hey, at least it isn’t, god forbid, a MONOLITH. That would require someone to take the time to understand how the application works.

            • AdNecrias@lemmy.pt
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              3 months ago

              Ah, yeah I get that. Java interpreter so you can virtual machine your way into having someone else making sure the thing works with all hardware it can live in.

              Blind scalability and flexibility are neat tho, gives access to a lot less knowledgeable people to do stuff and theoretically frees up those who know for more complicated tasks.

              • msage@programming.dev
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                3 months ago

                It almost never works like that.

                People who don’t understand computers will work against it in almost every case.

  • bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net
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    3 months ago

    The management culture emphasizes a workflow that’s heavy on low skill junior devs and cheap foreign labor of highly variable quality. You caaaaan do that well with infinite planning and QA and project management and test-driven design, but the reason you’re trying to do it that way to begin with is you’re an under qualified yes-man careerist dipshit trying to come in under budget and time, so you won’t. And these are the wages of low wages.

  • ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Things like planned obsolescence and software blocks on things like farmers fixing tractors without John Deere’s software permission almost makes me think the bad guys won the Cold War.

    Between me and a mechanic friend, we can fix my car but we can’t turn off the (wholly unnecessary) “inspection needed” noise without me spending $1000 on software. Apparently, the inspection needed warning isn’t even related to anything. It just comes on every x miles. The car doesn’t have a detected issue or anything. That beep is radicalizing me.

  • myliltoehurts@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    Aside from the effort required others have mentioned, there’s also an effect of capitalism.

    For a lot of their tech, they have a near-monopoly or at least a very large market share. Take windows from Microsoft. What motivation would they have to fix bugs which impact even 5-10% of their userbase? Their only competition is linux with its’ around 4(?)% market share and osx which requires expensive hardware. Not fixing the bug just makes people annoyed, but 90% won’t leave because they can’t. As long as it doesn’t impact enterprise contracts it’s not worth it to fix it because the time spent doing that is a loss for shareholders, meanwhile new features which can collect data (like copilot for example) that can be sold generate money.

    I’m sure even the devs in most places want to make better products and fight management to give them more time to deliver features so they can be better quality - but it’s an exhausting sharp uphill battle which never ends, and at the end of the day the person who made broken feature with data collector 9000 built in will probably get the promotion while the person who fixed 800 5+ year old bugs gets a shout-out on a zoom call.

    • CookieOfFortune@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      I’m not sure Windows is a good example here since they’re historically well known for backwards compatibility and fixing obscure bugs for specific hardware.

      Whereas Linux famously always had driver support issues.

      • myliltoehurts@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        Backwards compatibility - yes I agree, it’s quite good at it.

        Hardware specific issues for any OSes - disagree. For windows that’s 80-90% done by the hardware manufacturer’s drivers. It’s not through an effort from Microsoft whether issues are fixed or not. For Linux it’s usually an effort of maintainers and if anything, Linux is famous for supporting old hardware that windows no longer works with.

        But the point I was making is not to say Linux or osx is better than windows or vice versa, it’s that windows holds by far the largest market share in desktops and neither of the alternatives are really drop-in replacements. So in the end they have no pressure on them to improve UX since it’s infeasible to change OS for the majority of their users at the moment.

  • Cornflake@lemmy.wtf
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    3 months ago

    This is somewhat outside the box but as tech becomes easier, a lot of people tend to become weaker at certain tech skills. An example of this is directory management. A lot of folks don’t organize their file structures nowadays, relying heavily on the search bar to find everything.

  • flashgnash@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    Programmers don’t get given the leeway to make the work they do of good quality if it doesn’t directly lead to more profit

  • some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org
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    3 months ago

    People who weren’t interested in tech found out they could make a lot of money in the field. The scene went from nerds who were passionate about the field to people who would be just as (un)interested in being doctors and lawyers. The vibrancy is gone.

    Source: tech-excited nerd who got into the industry in the late aughts.

    • Kyrgizion@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Every single new “innovation” is literally locked behind a paywall, sometimes multiple, in tiers. You can’t just “buy” anything anymore, you can only lease it, usually at exorbitant prices compared to not that long ago.

    • WaxiestSteam69@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      I definitely agree about the vibe being different in the mid 90s to the early 00s. Lots of passion and energy about the tech. I don’t think it’s all gone but it’s definitely nowhere near as intense.

  • penquin@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    Have you tried Google keyboard (gboard) lately? It made me want to break my phone and just not have one at all. It corrects proper words to other words that make the sentences don’t make sense. It corrects words that are already correct and it ignores the misspelled words. It wants to speak for me. They think they’re making us type faster with their predictive text, but I was re-reading every thing I put on the internet. I became slower. Thankfully I found a worse keyboard, but it doesn’t autocorrects as much and I’m ok with that. Fuck Google.

  • snooggums@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Everyone else has great points about complexity, but there is an additional issue which is the constant desire for change keeping products from being refined and perfected.

    Any product will have small changes that improve it, like reinforcing points of failure specific to that design. Let’s take a kitchen knife, the kind chefs use. Some manufacturers have the exact same model produced for decades, with ever so slight variations on angles, handles, and so on as they refined design. Now they are high quality if they keep the production going, and that is something that has no moving parts! These knives continue to sell because they are used constantly, can break or be damaged, and new restaurants open all the time requiring a constant supply of knives.

    The home knife market does not have the same pressure for reliability because people don’t use them all day every day like a chef. Instead, companies are constantly changing designs to sell new versions to the same over saturated market that prizes form over function. They change the handles slightly, make a change to the blade, and sometimes these changes make the knife worse but they can slap a ‘new and improved’ sticker on the label as long as something changed.

    The same thing happens with technology except complex systems have even more refinement needed while the companies are also trying to change things just to change them in the pursuit of the ‘new and improved’ market. Moving menus around, changing orders of things, making things look flashy are all side effects of tech being afraid of selling the same thing for an extended period of time because people want something new and shiny to replace what they had. Time and effort is spent on changing things, and it is hard to do bug fixes while also creating something new that might make a bunch of old bugs obsolete. Oh, and they will also be spending their time trying to patch critical vulnerabilities, because that might keep someone from buying their next thing.

    So all the effort going into changing things, often making them worse if they happened to stumble into a useful design already, and they put all of their focus on that change and vulnerabilities so they don’t have time to fix usability issues or do the things that would make their product better because why bother as long as people are buying? Anything someone who is knowledgeable about being fixed is unlikely to be a priority because the regular user probably hasn’t even noticed and they are the ones who are going to buy the next version. That is why things like bluetooth continues to suck, because it works well enough to sell more things and doing it right would take more effort. The handy feature that you used to like being removed? They felt it needed to change just to change and whoever provided input or feedback came up with this instead.

    Oh, and all of this was just talking about available time spent doing things but on top of that they want to spend as little as possible so they get the cheap parts that are made by companies who also make a product just good enough that they get more customers to buy their parts for as little cost to produce as possible.

    TLDR: market pressures favor changing things constantly which introduces more design flaws and capitalist pressures focus on revising designs to sell more and security flaws so as long as it sells it doesn’t matter if it has shitty usability and minor flaws are never fixed

  • darklamer@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    3 months ago

    Why is it so pervasive? And why does some of it seem to be ignored for literal years?

    Considering that you know that these problems have not yet been fixed, you must still be using these products despite these problems not yet being fixed and there’s your answer: What would the motivation be to fix problems that aren’t severe enough to make you stop using the product?

  • I_Miss_Daniel@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    A bit like Motorola phones killing messenger e even if you tell them not to, or losing photos if you press home too soon after a night shot.

  • Windex007@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    CEOs wanna cosplay Steve Jobs and unvail their crazy new features. They’ve already “trimmed the fat” to appease shareholders.

    They just can’t make fixing old issues sexy.

  • Christopher Masto@lemmy.masto.community
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    3 months ago

    I worked at Google for over a decade. The issue isn’t that the engineers are unaware or unable. Time and time and time again there would be some new product or feature released for internal testing, it would be a complete disaster, bugs would be filed with tens of thousands of votes begging not to release it, and Memegen would go nuts. And all the feedback would be ignored and it would ship anyway.

    Upper management just doesn’t care. Reputational damage isn’t something they understand. The company is run by professional management consultants whose main expertise is gaslighting. And the layers and layers of people in the middle who don’t actually contribute any value have to constantly generate something to go into the constant cycle of performance reviews and promotion attempts, so they mess with everything, re-org, cancel projects, move teams around, duplicate work, compete with each other, and generally make life hell for everyone under them. It’s surprising anything gets done at all, but what does moves at a snail’s pace compared to the outside world. Not for lack of effort, the whole system is designed so you have to work 100 times harder than necessary and it feels like an accomplishment when you’ve spent a year adding a single checkbox to a UI.

    I may have gone on a slight tangent there.

    • InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Reputational damage isn’t something they understand

      Is this really the case? I feel like they might, but are deciding that its “worth the cost of business”

      • AdNecrias@lemmy.pt
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        3 months ago

        I’d think since companies get big enough they can just buy the promising competition before it becomes a problem, I’d say it’s a worthwhile cost to them

        • nilloc@discuss.tchncs.de
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          3 months ago

          Yeah, lack of competition is driving a lot of this. Fixing bugs doesn’t increase their stock value. It doesn’t make the line go up.

          Launching products and bragging about profits makes the line go up (especially just before a quarter or monthly report is due).

          AT&T/Bell Telephone was like this for years until they were finally broken up (nominally). When cellphones came out and provided nationwide competition, long distance suddenly became free.

          We need to bust up google, Facebook, etc. They have nothing to push them to be better, just CEO egos and investors to please.

          • P00ptart@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            Facebook as a product is over. It’s like 90% ads. I almost never see my friends posts anymore.

    • Che Banana@beehaw.org
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      3 months ago

      A corporate analogy/strategy is to block your competition from the market share.

      For example, a company I used to work for would open accounts in non-viable/non-profitable locations so that our competition would not have the chance to get more market share.

      Big corps don’t give a shit if it works or not, as long as they are the biggest they can squeeze out anyone else, so they will launch whatever is trending (meta/threads) and bullshit thier way into another piece of the pie.

    • MoonMelon@lemmy.ml
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      3 months ago

      I ran into a guy from high school and it turns out he worked for Microsoft back in the Windows Mobile days. He said that changing even a single button on a submenu would take six months of meetings, and if it involved other departments they would actively sabotage any progress due to the way MS internally made departments compete, so you could basically forget it. He said they literally backdoored software so they could sidestep other departments to get features in.

      I think about that a lot.

      • AdNecrias@lemmy.pt
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        3 months ago

        But the trick is having layers of monkey spheres! The ceo monkey has 20 directors below it and each of those has 20 people leading people so it all reports up and gets lost but is “good enough”.