And this, folks, is why there will be no “year of the Linux desktop”. The technical difficulties, and the surrounding gatekeeping.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a dev, I RTFM, but for most people, their computer is just a simple tool, like a hammer or a screwdriver, that lets them do the actual work they have to do. They aren’t any less “real” Linux users. Just users that will go back to other OSes cause it doesn’t work for them and they keep getting told that it’s their fault for not reading the manual.
Yeah, I see a fair amount of gatekeeping and condescension in Linux communities. I also see a lot of people who truly want to be helpful, but that aspect is there.
I’ve seen Linux compared to car ownership a number of times, and I think that’s an apt comparison. I have the knowledge to use and perform basic maintenance on a car, and I have no interest in learning more. It’s a tool made for a purpose. Some people love to tinker with cars, and I can understand that. I love Linux and enjoy tinkering with it, but it generally won’t “just work” for most users. Yes, if you’re setting it up for your grandparents and they just need a web browser or something like that it’s probably fine but most users that aren’t Linux savvy are going to run into issues.
Linux is becoming ever more usable, and I think usage will continue to increase alongside that, but I don’t see it ever becoming a major personal desktop platform. Wouldn’t mind being wrong, but Linux will be fine, regardless.
chromeOS exist, and it’s very mainstream, distros anly need tobe more dumped down, not to much, just enough, my bet is in finally atomic systems becoming the norm and flatpak too
I wouldn’t call ChromeOS Linux anymore than I would call MacOS FreeBSD (oversimplified comparison, but it works for my point).
It may be based on a Linux kernel but it contains closed source code that’s needed for essential functionality, and we don’t get to choose hardware independently of the OS, nor a different OS for the hardware.
It’s an ecosystem that’s hostile to user rights and in my opinion doesn’t fit the spirit of what Linux is.
Edit: I suppose that’s a bit gatekeeperish? But I don’t think Linux adoption should be achieved at the cost of user freedom and choice. It loses what makes it special at that point.
you can install chomeOS flex on your computer tho, i agree wuth you, but my argument is about the OS more pre-made with atomic updates and things like that to be more reliable and stable
And this, folks, is why there will be no “year of the Linux desktop”. The technical difficulties, and the surrounding gatekeeping.
Joke’s on you, we don’t need there to be one. Mine was 2007. Yours was whenever it was. I welcome new users, but my happiness doesn’t depend on Linux appealing to everyone, and neither does the survival of Linux as an option.
The types who appreciate what differentiates the Linux experience from Windows or MacOS (in terms of the typical benefits we’d evangelize) will find their way here. It’s naturally getting easier over time, and the contrast (especially against the Windows experience) is only increasing in its attractiveness.
You need a willingness to learn, and if you’ve never installed an OS ever before that will be true even for Windows. Why are we trying to lower the bar further than that? Not everyone has to start with Arch, or should.
This is merely one way to view it. The other is the one I gave. An OS is a tool for most people, they don’t even understand nor learned Windows, it’s mostly the gateway between them and their actual work, i.e. the software they use. They want a computer that runs their software, that’s it.
The “we don’t need them as Linux users if they don’t want to RTFM” line of thinking you’re exhibiting was exactly my point. Why do you interpret making things better for everyone as “lowering the bar”? Unless you genuinely think it’s a good thing the technical barrier is there, I don’t know how you rationalize this opinion.
Mine was 2007 too. Almost two decades later, and we still have the people playing gatekeepers.
Who’s gatekeeping? Why would a new user be pushed to Arch? There are many options where a user can probably get by without having to read a wiki, and certainly not the Arch wiki. It’s no harder than installing Windows to install those distros for a basic install - and no harder than an advanced Windows install for an advanced install. What problem are you trying to solve?
My point is - there’s always this underlying “well it’s not easy enough for every last untrained child to pick up an iso and install it, so it’s failed!”
My point is:
Netiher is Windows
Even Windows has a learning curve, but it’s so ingrained that folks don’t realize they’ve already traversed it and
NOTHING appeals to or is suitable for every last person, so why does desktop Linux (edit: Or at least Arch for sure as in OP) need to be?
Jesus, the self-entitlement of users these days… When saying you might have to RTFM is equivalent to, “that feature never worked or never existed and you should feel bad for wanting it”.
LMDE on somewhat recent hardware with an iGPU. My wife has not asked me a single question, mostly since she opens the laptop, opens firefox, does whatever, closes laptop. An absolutely typical user.
Yeah, we’ve admittedly come a very long way. My Hardy Heron setup took days to get to a usable state on my hardware, back then, and even then, my laptop couldn’t hold a charge, sleep didn’t work properly, and there were so many crashes lol. Nowadays it’s pretty much smooth sailing on most of my machines without really having to think about it. I still avoid Nvidia like the plague, but Intel/AMD stuff are usually a pretty safe bet.
Those early years were really formative, but I’m glad of all the progress that’s been done. I just wish the gatekeeping would stop. It’s one of the major hurdles to adoption, IMHO. I don’t want people to convert necessarily (I still use Windows and/or macOS for things) but to stop being afraid to try, and these people really don’t help…
Nearly every machine with any complexity greater than a light switch comes with a manual. As the number of features of a system grows, it becomes less and less feasible to design user interfaces that expose all of those features so intuitively that most people get them instantly. In fact large software with tons of features in UI have manuals and need books to master. Featurefull software requires documentation. And so the question isn’t whether one piece of software requires documentation to use or not, instead it’s whether that pieces of software can do more or less, and whether someone bothered to write a doc. In Linux’es case someone typically bothered to do it. There is an M to RTF. On Windows on the other hand, if something obvious doesn’t work, or it isn’t obvious, you’re often stuck with hearsay or worse - banging your head against the wall. It’s quite alright for people to prefer to stick with what they know whether it provides the easiest way to do something or not. But let’s not get confused that RTFM is a bad thing. RTFM means there’s an M, it means the M will help, it means that the software has the capability you need, and likely more than you need. ☺️
Okay. But did any of these users need to read the manual to use Windows? My point was not that RTFM is a bad thing per se, but that pretending people aren’t proper Linux users if they don’t is absurd. They have Linux in their machine? They’re Linux users.
You’ll find that most users don’t really use Windows. They use a handful of programs, usually superficially, and that’s pretty much it. People tend to have as little knowledge of anything computer related as possible. Whether they actually need it or not. Knowing about computers is seen as “bad”.
If you ever have to support users, it’s very enlightening in that regard.
Which was exactly my point. Most people see their computer/OS as the thing that lets them log in and launch their programs, that’s all. Which comes back to expecting most people that launch Linux to do it being an unreasonable ask. We don’t ask people to be specialists of their cars’ mechanics to drive it.
I’ve helped plenty of non-technical folks install Linux on older machines and they have zero problems using it for basic computing stuff, especially since so much of it is just websites.
I’ve also helped plenty of technical folks install Linux on newer hardware, and some had difficulties and I had to provide support more than once. One of my grandparents understood Ubuntu/Unity immediately, the other had trouble. Anecdotes don’t say much.
If we want to keep going with car comparisons, I’ll try to make it illustrate my point once again - do those people happen to learn that R doesn’t mean “Really fast” by being snarkily told to RTFM by a car enthusiast or they aren’t a real driver?
I was specifically addressing the “Linux users need to RTFM or they aren’t Linux users” affirmation. It’s not defending ignorance to point out that it’s gatekeepey as hell.
Honestly I love the Steam Deck for getting Linux into people’s hands in a way that’s easy and Just Works :tm:. They’ve not replaced the OS on their Steam Deck at all, which is a win not just for Valve but the Linux ecosystem as a whole.
Though, the only issue my friends has had is transferring files to and from the Steam Deck if their main PC runs Windows or Mac. There are a multitude of varyingly convenient options but all of my friends have literally just plugged an external hard drive through the sole USB-C port lol. Linux has to cater to people who won’t even install third-party drivers.
Yup Steam Deck is a great example of Linux falling in end-users hands in the right way to drive adoption. The average person doesn’t even have to care that it is indeed running on Linux.
Yeah, but that wasn’t my point nor the one made by the person I was answering to. My point is, those users eventually hit the (inevitable) bump in the road, ask for help, get told by people like the person I was answering to that they have to RTFM or else they aren’t real Linux users, so they go back to Windows.
I genuinely have a hard time believing you can both have been “using Linux for a very long time” and never had to fix an issue lol. If you’ve legitimately been using it for that long, you’re also probably the type to RTFM, so I probably wasn’t talking about you…
If what you didn’t see were examples of gatekeeping, read this very thread lol. But again, rather anecdotal. Spend some time talking to anyone trying the OS now and see their experience. Read threads made by newbies.
Feel free to point out where I was “offended”. I thought this was merely a discussion, as these communities encourage to have.
As for what was actually said, even re-reading the comment I was answering to, your interpretation of what was said is still not what I’m reading, at all. Quoting verbatim: “You aren’t a Linux user if you don’t like to RTFM”. How is this not gatekeeping? You use Linux, you’re a Linux user, that’s all.
The best thing about Linux is that it comes with a manual. Like literally type man and boom there it is. As a C developer it is like easy mode. I hate having to open a browser just to know what a basi command does
You aren’t a Linux user if you don’t like to RTFM.
A lot of the time there’s just no way around it.
And this, folks, is why there will be no “year of the Linux desktop”. The technical difficulties, and the surrounding gatekeeping.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a dev, I RTFM, but for most people, their computer is just a simple tool, like a hammer or a screwdriver, that lets them do the actual work they have to do. They aren’t any less “real” Linux users. Just users that will go back to other OSes cause it doesn’t work for them and they keep getting told that it’s their fault for not reading the manual.
Yeah, I see a fair amount of gatekeeping and condescension in Linux communities. I also see a lot of people who truly want to be helpful, but that aspect is there.
I’ve seen Linux compared to car ownership a number of times, and I think that’s an apt comparison. I have the knowledge to use and perform basic maintenance on a car, and I have no interest in learning more. It’s a tool made for a purpose. Some people love to tinker with cars, and I can understand that. I love Linux and enjoy tinkering with it, but it generally won’t “just work” for most users. Yes, if you’re setting it up for your grandparents and they just need a web browser or something like that it’s probably fine but most users that aren’t Linux savvy are going to run into issues.
Linux is becoming ever more usable, and I think usage will continue to increase alongside that, but I don’t see it ever becoming a major personal desktop platform. Wouldn’t mind being wrong, but Linux will be fine, regardless.
That was more ranty than I had expected!
chromeOS exist, and it’s very mainstream, distros anly need tobe more dumped down, not to much, just enough, my bet is in finally atomic systems becoming the norm and flatpak too
I wouldn’t call ChromeOS Linux anymore than I would call MacOS FreeBSD (oversimplified comparison, but it works for my point).
It may be based on a Linux kernel but it contains closed source code that’s needed for essential functionality, and we don’t get to choose hardware independently of the OS, nor a different OS for the hardware.
It’s an ecosystem that’s hostile to user rights and in my opinion doesn’t fit the spirit of what Linux is.
Edit: I suppose that’s a bit gatekeeperish? But I don’t think Linux adoption should be achieved at the cost of user freedom and choice. It loses what makes it special at that point.
you can install chomeOS flex on your computer tho, i agree wuth you, but my argument is about the OS more pre-made with atomic updates and things like that to be more reliable and stable
Joke’s on you, we don’t need there to be one. Mine was 2007. Yours was whenever it was. I welcome new users, but my happiness doesn’t depend on Linux appealing to everyone, and neither does the survival of Linux as an option.
The types who appreciate what differentiates the Linux experience from Windows or MacOS (in terms of the typical benefits we’d evangelize) will find their way here. It’s naturally getting easier over time, and the contrast (especially against the Windows experience) is only increasing in its attractiveness.
You need a willingness to learn, and if you’ve never installed an OS ever before that will be true even for Windows. Why are we trying to lower the bar further than that? Not everyone has to start with Arch, or should.
This is merely one way to view it. The other is the one I gave. An OS is a tool for most people, they don’t even understand nor learned Windows, it’s mostly the gateway between them and their actual work, i.e. the software they use. They want a computer that runs their software, that’s it.
The “we don’t need them as Linux users if they don’t want to RTFM” line of thinking you’re exhibiting was exactly my point. Why do you interpret making things better for everyone as “lowering the bar”? Unless you genuinely think it’s a good thing the technical barrier is there, I don’t know how you rationalize this opinion.
Mine was 2007 too. Almost two decades later, and we still have the people playing gatekeepers.
Who’s gatekeeping? Why would a new user be pushed to Arch? There are many options where a user can probably get by without having to read a wiki, and certainly not the Arch wiki. It’s no harder than installing Windows to install those distros for a basic install - and no harder than an advanced Windows install for an advanced install. What problem are you trying to solve?
My point is - there’s always this underlying “well it’s not easy enough for every last untrained child to pick up an iso and install it, so it’s failed!”
My point is:
Jesus, the self-entitlement of users these days… When saying you might have to RTFM is equivalent to, “that feature never worked or never existed and you should feel bad for wanting it”.
Gatekeeping aside…
LMDE on somewhat recent hardware with an iGPU. My wife has not asked me a single question, mostly since she opens the laptop, opens firefox, does whatever, closes laptop. An absolutely typical user.
Sometimes she even clicks on the update popup.
Yeah, we’ve admittedly come a very long way. My Hardy Heron setup took days to get to a usable state on my hardware, back then, and even then, my laptop couldn’t hold a charge, sleep didn’t work properly, and there were so many crashes lol. Nowadays it’s pretty much smooth sailing on most of my machines without really having to think about it. I still avoid Nvidia like the plague, but Intel/AMD stuff are usually a pretty safe bet.
Those early years were really formative, but I’m glad of all the progress that’s been done. I just wish the gatekeeping would stop. It’s one of the major hurdles to adoption, IMHO. I don’t want people to convert necessarily (I still use Windows and/or macOS for things) but to stop being afraid to try, and these people really don’t help…
Nearly every machine with any complexity greater than a light switch comes with a manual. As the number of features of a system grows, it becomes less and less feasible to design user interfaces that expose all of those features so intuitively that most people get them instantly. In fact large software with tons of features in UI have manuals and need books to master. Featurefull software requires documentation. And so the question isn’t whether one piece of software requires documentation to use or not, instead it’s whether that pieces of software can do more or less, and whether someone bothered to write a doc. In Linux’es case someone typically bothered to do it. There is an M to RTF. On Windows on the other hand, if something obvious doesn’t work, or it isn’t obvious, you’re often stuck with hearsay or worse - banging your head against the wall. It’s quite alright for people to prefer to stick with what they know whether it provides the easiest way to do something or not. But let’s not get confused that RTFM is a bad thing. RTFM means there’s an M, it means the M will help, it means that the software has the capability you need, and likely more than you need. ☺️
Okay. But did any of these users need to read the manual to use Windows? My point was not that RTFM is a bad thing per se, but that pretending people aren’t proper Linux users if they don’t is absurd. They have Linux in their machine? They’re Linux users.
You’ll find that most users don’t really use Windows. They use a handful of programs, usually superficially, and that’s pretty much it. People tend to have as little knowledge of anything computer related as possible. Whether they actually need it or not. Knowing about computers is seen as “bad”.
If you ever have to support users, it’s very enlightening in that regard.
Which was exactly my point. Most people see their computer/OS as the thing that lets them log in and launch their programs, that’s all. Which comes back to expecting most people that launch Linux to do it being an unreasonable ask. We don’t ask people to be specialists of their cars’ mechanics to drive it.
I’ve helped plenty of non-technical folks install Linux on older machines and they have zero problems using it for basic computing stuff, especially since so much of it is just websites.
I’ve also helped plenty of technical folks install Linux on newer hardware, and some had difficulties and I had to provide support more than once. One of my grandparents understood Ubuntu/Unity immediately, the other had trouble. Anecdotes don’t say much.
Yea but we expect them to also know “R” isn’t for “Really fast”.
You need to recognize what defending ignorance is.
If we want to keep going with car comparisons, I’ll try to make it illustrate my point once again - do those people happen to learn that R doesn’t mean “Really fast” by being snarkily told to RTFM by a car enthusiast or they aren’t a real driver?
I was specifically addressing the “Linux users need to RTFM or they aren’t Linux users” affirmation. It’s not defending ignorance to point out that it’s gatekeepey as hell.
Yes of course a Linux user is a Linux user whether they RTFM or not.
Honestly I love the Steam Deck for getting Linux into people’s hands in a way that’s easy and Just Works :tm:. They’ve not replaced the OS on their Steam Deck at all, which is a win not just for Valve but the Linux ecosystem as a whole.
Though, the only issue my friends has had is transferring files to and from the Steam Deck if their main PC runs Windows or Mac. There are a multitude of varyingly convenient options but all of my friends have literally just plugged an external hard drive through the sole USB-C port lol. Linux has to cater to people who won’t even install third-party drivers.
Yup Steam Deck is a great example of Linux falling in end-users hands in the right way to drive adoption. The average person doesn’t even have to care that it is indeed running on Linux.
There are other distros that require a lot less work to set up and maintain.
Yeah, but that wasn’t my point nor the one made by the person I was answering to. My point is, those users eventually hit the (inevitable) bump in the road, ask for help, get told by people like the person I was answering to that they have to RTFM or else they aren’t real Linux users, so they go back to Windows.
I’ve been using Linux for a very long time and nothing of the sort has ever happened to me.
I genuinely have a hard time believing you can both have been “using Linux for a very long time” and never had to fix an issue lol. If you’ve legitimately been using it for that long, you’re also probably the type to RTFM, so I probably wasn’t talking about you…
I’ve had to fix many issues but I’ve never had anyone be an ass about it. I’ve received plenty of friendly, helpful advice.
If what you didn’t see were examples of gatekeeping, read this very thread lol. But again, rather anecdotal. Spend some time talking to anyone trying the OS now and see their experience. Read threads made by newbies.
Nobody is gatekeeping anything by merely pointing out that you will very likely be digging through docs to troubleshoot Linux.
That’s just stating a fact. Why does stating a fact offend you so much?
Feel free to point out where I was “offended”. I thought this was merely a discussion, as these communities encourage to have.
As for what was actually said, even re-reading the comment I was answering to, your interpretation of what was said is still not what I’m reading, at all. Quoting verbatim: “You aren’t a Linux user if you don’t like to RTFM”. How is this not gatekeeping? You use Linux, you’re a Linux user, that’s all.
Or you could just Google stuff and then paste the commands into the console.
The best thing about Linux is that it comes with a manual. Like literally type man and boom there it is. As a C developer it is like easy mode. I hate having to open a browser just to know what a basi command does
Just wait till you find out about FreeBSD and its manual
The FreeBSD handbook was my first introduction into the world of *nix. Still an incredible resource even if haven’t used bsd for a few years.
I actually found out and about and had to go through Guardian’s manual before I started to poke at unix.
There was a whole wall of it too.
It’s a feature not a bug.