With all the dismal news about America lately, my home, I’m starting to seriously look at where else to move.
Putting aside for now the difficulty of actually immigrating to some countries, I’m curious on the opinions of others (especially people living outside the U.S) on this.
What I’m looking for in a country is, I imagine, similar to many people. I’m trying to find somewhere that will exhibit:
- Low racism
- Low sexism
- Low LGBTQ-phobia
- Strong laws around food quality and safety
- Strong laws about environmental protection
- Strong laws against unethical corporate practices (monopoly, corruption, lobbying, etc)
- Strong laws for privacy
- Good treatment of mentally ill, homeless, and impoverished people
Those are the real important things. Of course the nice-to-haves are almost too obvious to be worth listing, low cost of living, strong art and cultural scene, nice environment, and so on.
My actual constraints that might really matter are that I only speak English (and maybe like A1-2 level German). It seems incredibly intimidating to try to find employment somewhere when I can hardly speak the language.
I know nowhere on Earth is perfect, just curious what people may have to suggest. I hope this question isn’t too selfish to ask here.
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That’s most European countries. Pick one, learn its language and immigration laws, and off you go
afghanistan
Denmark seems to fit fairly well and there are some English-only jobs in Copenhagen. I have a lot of colleagues that don’t speak Danish.
Danish people rightly expect that immigrants should learn Danish within few years. Not like by law, but culturally.
I mean if you truly intend to stay in a country for many years, shouldn’t you learn the language? Also just for your own sake.
Toronto and Vancouver are expensive but you definitely get what you pay for
Honestly I don’t get what the hype with Toronto is. It costs like Vancouver but with Calgary’s weather and general vibes.
Good transit, good jobs, lots of cultural stuff, amazing food. The weather definitely isn’t great but it’s still consistently a few degrees warmer than Calgary in the winter. Vancouver obviously crushes both of them in this category.
Yeah, similar weather relatively speaking.
I’ve never been to Toronto, so I can’t talk too much trash, but I have been to Vancouver many times and experienced how awesome it is. And they both cost a similar amount!
Toronto is amazing. It’s a lot like NYC but clean, better run, and less densely populated. My friend describes it as NYC run by the Swiss, and I’ve loved all the time I’ve spent there
The weather can be hit or miss, but it didn’t bother me, even with the endless snow. I’m moving there soon and I’m super excited for it.
After been in 5 continents in 30+ countries and living in 6… the best for your requirements is Spain. Spain, even the opposing parties are unlikely to touch most of those protections since it has wide support among the population. Now, Spain is not panacea, it still has stigma against Gypsies, older people face job discrimination, etc.
Regarding privacy is OK, more due to inaction than protection but far better than most neighbors in the north.
On corruption… the ‘perception’ is that there is plenty but no more than I witnessed in countries like Germany, UK or USA… the difference is that corruption in Spain is highly exposed by rival parties/media while in the other countries it is no so sensationalized, that is why of the increase ‘perception’. By the way, Scandinavia, that I used to admire, above local governments, I don´t see it much better on corruption levels, specially since late 2000s.
Regarding foreigners, Spain has many offers in certain jobs, where English is a requirement, but not easy at all for more common jobs where the local language is what is mostly used, even if you dominate it well. Now, you will be surprised how many companies are moving jobs to Spain since it is easier to attract talent to Barcelona or Malaga than to Berlin or Grenoble… and they save in salaries.
Now, if you put less emphasis in sexism and LGBTQ, certain countries in Latin America like Mexico or Uruguay, or across the ocean others like Malaysia may be more appealing, it is not that they are expressively against those groups, it is just they demand a more quiet sexual expression from you.
Lastly, countries like Australia, New Zealand and the like have become so corrupt at high level and against privacy and freedom of expression in certain topics, should be disregarded if you emphasis on that. Ireland, is the only exception in the Anglo world, now, like Switzerland and Norway, they are floating in money o every one is okay while economies are good… the test comes, as always, come in challenging times. Till, then, consider those three too.
Spain is one of the main supporters of the infamous chatcontrol and wants to ban encryption. So, please tell me more about Spain and its stance on privacy …
Chat control, ban encryption? Where do you get that? I follow occasionally Spanish politics and never came across that. It may have been raised by some lone politician but highly unlikely to happen, unless other countries like France or Germany does it first, nor the people will follow with any mandate. The problem is if the main opposition party gets in power… they are more inclined to do that but even there I don´t see it spearheading any of that by themselves.
The Spanish government has a very strong opinion on this:
https://www.techradar.com/news/spain-seeks-to-ban-encryption-leaked-document-reveals
Spain’s vision appeared to be the most extreme, with the nation’s leaders apparently seeing the access to citizens’ data as “imperative” to allow authorities catching criminals in the virtual world.
Spain wasn’t just the strongest fan of the bill, but it also argued how EU-based providers should be ideally prevented from implementing E2E in the first place. Of a similar stance was Poland, suggesting that parents should have the power to decrypt children’s chats. Among other supporters for the Chat Control proposalare Cyprus, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia and Romania.
There are many more news articles about this.
Again, that seems to be a personal vendetta of the minister Grande-Marlaska that keeps going secretly against the government policy (like the recently Israeli munition purchase that wast promptly canceled). No parliament debate on encryption or even public debate has been brought up at all. If it does, the minute it comes up, it would be turned down swiftly by the current coalition government. The President has no made any statement on banning encryption either, nor I think he would either. However, he did talk on identification on social media, but he will not spearhead that, nor it is doable to implement for now.
This is the official position of the Spanish government in the European Council. And it is unchanged for the last years. This is no “personal vendetta” or some secret agenda. Spain is again and again voting against encryption.
Maybe you should google that stuff.
You should instead put energy into your environment and community to make positive changes in your area.
Yes, I’ve thought about this a lot and do make efforts to improve my environment. But it’s disheartening, the vast majority of people in my community are extreme Trump supporters. I know people who threw parties to celebrate the renaming of the Gulf of Mexico. It’s hard to know how to improve my community in light of that, and in fact it’s hard to even want to.
But I am open to suggestions, what do you think are some of the best things I could do to improve my area?
I’m in a similar boat and was considering moving to Ireland or Chile. In the end, I couldn’t overcome the immigration requirements, so I decided to just move to a better state within the US. Not sure if it’s the best option, but maybe that could also improve things for you.
It’s important to consider trends and trajectories, while countries like Ireland and whatnot may appear to satisfy a lot of these, they are also struggling with the same decaying Capitalist system and are being dragged down by US decay as well. Countries like China that are improving rapidly might be more worth considering.
I agree.
China would get a -100/10 for privacy though.
About the same score as any Western country. Privacy isn’t really respected anywhere unless you force it yourself, too much money in big data.
In China it’s illegal to be private though. Skynet, the surveillance system is always watching you when your in public. You have to use phones thay are regulated by the government and you can’t have access to websites thay aren’t whitlisted by the government unless you use a vpn which as far as I know is illegal in China.
Western countries have similar levels of surveilance and regulation. The firewall and VPN bit is true, but that’s not for privacy so much as it is the desire to build up their own internet that can’t be dominated by the US. They are very wary of how western countries used propaganda to destabilize the USSR with outlets like Radio Free Europe.
Ireland ticks most of your boxes. If any of your grandparents are Irish you can get dual citizenship. English speaking and lots of cultural crossover etc.
Closer for trips back too. Think it’s only a 5 hour flight to New York for example.
Just maybe don’t practice your Cockney accent while there… The locals seem to hate that accent, for some reason.
i’'m tired of people complaining about bigoted america and “how i want to move to liberal europe”. move that lazy ass and topple that idiot in the white house and the system that makes him possible (yes, that means ditching the democrat party too).
My kid would like to still have a dad. One who is, ideally, not in prison or dead.
This would be great, but the hard truth is this will get you executed in the street, and this country is no longer worth dying for.
It may reach a boiling point eventually, but for now, given the choice, I think I’d prefer to move house than be murdered by my own military.
Reading the list, NZ does pretty well… Right to the end…
- good treatment of mentally ill, homeless and impoverished people…
We don’t do that here
I heard people say Australia and New Zealand outright bans the physically and mentally disabled from obtaining citizenship. How true is that?
This may be anecdotal but I visited Christchurch NZ last year and walked around the whole city. I don’t believe I saw a single person begging / sleeping on the street.
Compared to my small rust belt city in the US where there’s homeless at every busy intersection begging and pop-up tent settlements that will frequently be destroyed by cops. Bigger cities and/or the West Coast ones like Portland have way more of this type of thing.
- good treatment of mentally ill, homeless and impoverished people…
You called America your home. There is something to be said for home improvement. I’m fortunate to be dual citizen, so I could leave whenever I want. I choose not to because it is where my parents, my sister and her kids are. I’ll stay here and make whatever improvements, however small they are, as long as my folks still live here.
Yes, I wouldn’t be renouncing U.S citizenship unless I really had to. I’ve stayed this long precisely because I don’t want to leave the “problem spot” and cause it to only have extremists left over living here. I do try to support events and businesses that support causes I agree with, but that’s about all there is to do as far as I can see. As I said in other comments, I would truly prefer to fix things here, as I like many things about my life here. But it’s starting to feel like I’m complicit in something wrong by remaining a resident and I’m not sure what to do about it.
ITT: A lot of people doing the typical StackOverflow thing of asserting the question is bad and answering a different question instead.
No country’s that great but Canada’s doing aight.
Thanks for understanding, I do feel a bit hurt by some insinuations in some responses, but I understand why citizens of the world would feel unhappy with whiny Americans right now. I just hope it doesn’t progress into a hatred. Many of my fellow Americans are very good people, but unfortunately we are so disenfranchised politically - I think it’s hard to convey the extent of it. The state of things here isn’t a result of laziness and unwillingness to participate. But in fairness, I didn’t refine my original post deeply and it came off not quite right. I’m not looking to selfishly abandon ship or become a silent drain on another country. I would love to build community, but it’s certainly easier in some places than others, for a wide variety of reasons.
No country’s that great but Canada’s doing aight.
You can buy a castle in France cheaper than dump apartments in Canada, apparently it’s a popular vlog on YouTube.
I said “aight” not good
Depends on where in Canada. Toronto? Vancouver? Montreal? Oy, insane real estate prices. Bumfuck, Alberta? Manitoba? Rural anywhere? Much cheaper.
And regardless of the price I could afford the utility and maintenance on a condo or apartment in a major city in Canada (if I could ever afford one) much more easily than on a castle in France. Not a great comparison.
Come to Canada, the weed is legal
Canada is certainly tempting if only on the basis that I would be closer to my family, and my family closer to me. And the recent election results were very relieving. Weed is legal here too though, haha.
the election results are much closer than you’d think. Popular vote had only a couple % lead. Everyone had to abandon voting for their preferred small party (e.g. greens, BQ, or NDP) to get liberals enough seats to beat the conservatives.
Yeah we’re far from perfect, but for better or worse we would be to smallest culture shock (it would kinda feel like moving to a new state).
I suggest developing a plan that is not just about building a better lifenfor yourself, but for others and community. For example, China ticks all of your boxes (yes, even privacy in comparison to the US), but it is also important to consider how you would personally make China better in the process, as you are, by moving, saying that your current conditions are pushing you to want to leave. So what about your current place of living was driven to that and how can this be made the case the world over?
Ultimately, capitalism is the underlying force of reaction, conservatism, and deprivation. It sets the guard rails of social policy, funds and purges the thought-moving forces of society. It creates homelessness. It destroys countries and societies, forcing them to adopy defensive and antagonistic positions to be viable and not only dominated. So I would recommend also thinking of this question in terms of how you might build your life as well as do well in fighting capitalism. As, ultimately, if this force is not recognized, you might find a place that ticka your boxes but is ultimately a forcr for capitalist expansion, e.g. most OECD countries. This wouldn’t make you a bad person but it is a major wrinkle in the idea of building a good life by finding a place based on these (all very reasonable) boxes to tick off.
I deeply agree with the community aspect. I can see how my original post came off as self-centered, but it’s always been my vision to be an active contributor to the local and larger communities of wherever I live. I am generally a pro-social person and do my best to help my local community. I definitely agree that building a strong community is vital to the criteria I’m looking for. It’s just that my current community feels largely like a lost cause. We certainly have a subculture that is what I’m looking for, but it’s just that - a subculture. And while that may be comforting and nice, it’s not enough to get politicians to listen.
I try to stave off the harms of capitalism as best I can while also balancing my own happiness for my limited time on Earth. But that’s a topic I’m sure we could both write essays about, so maybe best to save that for another time.
China is very much not low racism. You will encounter quite a lot of racism especially if you are black. Everyone is different but the racists are far more public about being racist.
China is low racism, particularly compared to other options. The racism experienced by black people in China is more that of unfamiliarity than bigotry. It does not come from the same place as white supremacy and does not have the same meaning or function.
One of my closest friends has been living in China for several years now. He’s white, and his wife’s Chinese parents said to his face, “at least you aren’t black”. People there casually refer to black people by the slur. I know there’s many racists in the west too, but in Australia I can make progress as a minority, in China it’s institutional, and in your face. Hard to feel part of the community if you are from a race that is discriminated.
That said, I was told it’s less due to straight up hate and more from ignorance.
Cool you have a friend and used it to broad brush 1.4 billion people.
Anglo settler ass logic.
Well other than growing around a large community of Han Chinese immigrants who all have different views on it sure. They are all generally aware of the racism issues in China particularly against black people. I’m assuming you have a much broader experience in China yourself and have seen otherwise outside of forums? If so I’d be more than happy to be wrong. But if first hand accounts from people who love China tell me that the country has a major issue with rampant racism, and have even told me that I wouldn’t be a good fit for the country due to not being light skinned, I’m obviously taking that to heart.
It’s possible to be critical of a country’s issues without implying that I’m accusing the entire population of being racist 🤷♂️
The way you speak of these things is so vague and unqualified that you yourself are basically dancing around the fringes of racism. Do you not know what racist logic looks like, e.g. denigrating entire ethnic groups or nationalities based on rumors, anecdotes from “a friend”, and half-remembered guesswork?
As I have consistently stated, racism exists in China but it is a low racism country overall. As you have admitted, the racism you will tend to encounter in China is naivete and not something deeper and malicious, which is what Anglos project from the white supremacy they are familiar with and help maintain in the countries they live in. You are in Australia. Australia is an Anglo settler colonial project premised on the genocide of indigenous Australians. You say you prefer to live there rather than experience rumored racism in China from a vague host of Han people (Han Chinese can refer to people from many countries, regions, ages, etc). Presumably you don’t really care about indigenous Australians and are somewhat naive about what most white Australians think of you, and you are trying to get by as “one of the good ones”, i.e. the subtly white supremacist liberal approach to race and ethnic background. If not, I’d be curious about your perception of how you are treated when adopting beauty standards drawn from your ethnic background(s) and when you politically challenge the violent liberal status quo. When the cops come to break up your direct action on Palestine (do you do anything remotely challenging white supremacy?), who stands with you?
But contrary to what you’re thinking, you can get by just fine in China and advance. But you might not be in a society propped up by imperialism and genocide and therefore need to work longer hours on top of learning a new culture.
Re: my familiarity with China, I am completely confident in what I’m saying and don’t need to tell internet stories about friends or rumors I heard to pretend at knowledge to broad brush countries and ethnic groups. If you don’t believe me, just go yourself. It is very inexpensive for Australians and you can spend a week or two in advance finding people who actually integrated locally and traveled to show you the ropes.
Im a migrant to Australia. It’s true Australia has loads of issues involving racism. That said I DO have the right to protest, and vote towards a better future. And I can, and do, get involved with my community to do what I can regarding those topics. Importantly though I can live in the country and not face racism daily nor often get treated differently because of the way I look.
Regardless I’m obviously going to take the word of the actual Chinese migrants I know of, and the people I know living in China, over strangers on the internet. You’re allowed to have your own opinions on it, I just don’t think it’s a great idea to hand wave the racism issues in China, particularly for people who are black or brown.
Yeah because Han superiority complex doesn’t exist right?
If you are white you get stares and reverse racism until you mess up then real racism. If you’re black you just get racism.
That it, generally speaking, false.
Well you obviously haven’t been to or lived in China for any period of time and most likely have an idealistic view of the country. Chinas a great place but being ignorant to its rampant racism is just silly. Because you’re certainly wrong. Waste of time comment.
Exactly. If you are financially stable and can fit within what is considered socially acceptable then it’s a great place to live.
China is a great place no matter your financial status :) You can survive on a lot less than the west. What is socially acceptable in someways in more open than the west too but in others less.
Great place to live and such great people
Its worth noting I mean as an immigrant who is not ethnically Chinese. It’s a tough place to adapt to if you aren’t financially stable. Do note that my knowledge comes from the experience of people from Australia.
