As kids, we’re told only people who go to college/university for politics/economics/law are qualifiable to make/run a country. As adults, we see no nation these “qualified” adults form actually work as a nation, with all manifesto-driven governments failing. Which to me validates the ambitions of all political theorist amateurs, especially as there are higher hopes now that anything an amateur might throw at the wall can stick. Here’s my favorite from a friend.

  • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    I’ve played around with the idea of a very ‘direct’ democracy, where effectively, all citizens have an app and are constantly and directly “engaged” in the process. I was imagining it as being a replacement for a local government. If you don’t want to be involved, you can transfer your vote to someone you trust in the system (and take it back whenever you like). The discussions would all be open and traceable, but the votes would be pseudo anonymized.

    That way if its not your thing or you aren’t interested, you can just hand your vote to someone else and let them manage it for you (kind-of like current political parties or representatives), but take it back at will.

    I think we suffer from a lack of civil engagement, and I get tired of people who refuse to put in the work blaming “da gubberment” for things. This system would effectively require them to engage at least some level. And if they complain about “the potholes” not getting fixed, well, there is a no excuse for not knowing why they arent getting fixed. I think we all need to take more responsibility for the world we live in.

    • VelvetStorm@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      This sounds good until you think about the reality of it. People will force partners and adult kids who financially depend on them to vote how they want. Then you have the rich and wealthy who will just pay people to vote on something the way they want.

      In theory, this sounds great, but the reality of it would be bad.

      • boatswain@infosec.pub
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        4 months ago

        Don’t even need to bring force into it. Can you imagine “I’ll give you $20 if you transfer your vote on issue X to me”? Seems like it’s basically just handing the government to the billionaire class even more than we already do.

    • barsquid@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      I’ve been thinking of a similar thing, delegating votes to people you trust. Delegation should be transitive, of course. I think it would also be neat to delegate by category or topic.

      I also like the idea of being active with it. I like to imagine someone needs to maintain a certain approval level or be removed, so people have recourse to act if they aren’t being listened to.

      • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Yeah for the short story I write the idea down for was about a high desert town in a western state. no-where in particular, but that gritty, off the grid, sandy desert western culture. somewhere between abbey and le guin, but in a modern context . a story about community having to make real decisions about things like infrastructure.

        I put the idea down a couple years ago when I was reading some local politician responding to criticisms about wasting public money and potholes and them basically being like “the budget is public. show me the waste? yall want more done? pay more taxes.”, when the reality of managing anything is costs and benefits in the context of limited resources. like the communal management of resources would have come about basically as an app this community was using to keep track of and develop the land they bought to home stead but it evolves from there.

        • barsquid@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          That local politician sounds like an interesting character. I love that response instead of just trying to talk their way around it. I can see why that would inspire a story.

          Did you happen to publish that in some format? It sounds like a good read.

            • barsquid@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              That’s relatable. I get plenty of downtime during the day but not in long enough stretches to focus on something like that. Society is upside-down. We should be working far fewer hours and spending more time doing hobbies.

      • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Yeah exactly. Like maybe there is some policy on housing I like your position on, so I can delegate my vote to you on this matter. But maybe I have a background in climate and focus on those issues, and hold delegates for that specific domain.

        Its like, an actual use case for crypto blockchain (not as money, but as ledger).

        Maybe you could organize a company/ cooperative this way?

        • otp@sh.itjust.works
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          4 months ago

          I feel like that’d just move lobbying from governments to people. So there’d be far more propaganda and garbage. Politicians would be becoming “power delegates”, collecting as many people’s votes as possible. Then we’d end up with another representative democracy (or whatever it’s called to vote for people who then vote for policies)

          • notfromhere@lemmy.ml
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            4 months ago

            Except it sounds like there are no elections for these new reps and people would be able to change their delegate at will whenever they want? But if it’s on a crypto-style ledger then it would have to either cost something (to prevent abuse) to change or be free after X period or on an election cycle. Definitely an interesting thought.

    • 777@lemmy.ml
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      4 months ago

      I have been thinking about this idea for some time also but a couple of things have always bugged me-

      Firstly, how does this interact with privacy? For vote delegation to work, I think the votes would have to be public, or you can’t make a decision on who to delegate your vote to- someone could claim to have one set of views but vote contrary to that. People could come under pressure to vote one way or another.

      Also, who crafts the legislation that is voted on? How do you prevent bill rolling (two unrelated ideas are boiled down to a single binary choice) and splitting (a new service is voted through but the taxes to fund it are not)?

      You said local government at least so a national or state government could help craft these things, but what if the proposed legislation doesn’t actually hurt local people, but doesn’t take into account the actual problems they have locally? For example, what if it would help to allow building in a particular area, but the state government doesn’t know that and it never becomes a priority?

  • fruitycoder@sh.itjust.works
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    4 months ago

    The wierdest one I made for ttrpg was a nation built by orphans in an extrwmly poverty striken nation. Life is short and fast, you do what you can to help each other out and when someone dies they get they’re name, date, and one sentence voted on by people that knew written in the book.

    Their is no ownership, but if you take something you better have good reason or people won’t help you out. If you want something done, do it or covince the people that can to do it.

    You’re expected to use contraceptives unless you know the orphanage can handle more kids. If you want to do something good with what little you’ve got helping to take care of poor kids like yourself at the orphanage is one most sure fire ways to do that. Holden up to raise just a kid or two out by yourself is no way to make a mark and who’s gonna write your sentence some snot nosed kid isolated from the rest of the world by you? Why?

    The moment that defined them as nation instead of just a community was when a nearby kingdom was preparing for a war path. They set out to create the equivalent of nuclear bomb, with many lives being lost trying to save themselves and each other. They finally made it, with many sentences being written of the kids that built a sun, and founded a nation. Their neighbors gave them a different sentence, because when they demonstrated it others had to turn they’re heads from the blindly blaze, but the kids “did not look away” instead smoke glasses adored admired what their felllow orphans did with them.

    Basically an anarchist society built on communal child rearing, and shared mythology of legacy of brief meaningful lives.

  • LrdThndr@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    When I was in college, this was literally an assignment in my political science class - come up with a country and a new form of government. Write out a constitution for the country, and then write a travel brochure for it.

    What I came up with is a lottery-based council government. The system is designed with none of the “gentleman’s agreements” that the US systems seems to be based on, and assumes that if it’s possible to abuse the system, then the system WILL BE abused. So it’s designed to minimize the ability for the system to be abused.

    You want to get rid of career politicians? Make it so they don’t even have the option of running for office in the first place.

    Councils

    The way my system worked is that all governmental tasks are performed by a council created for a specific purpose. Every council is made up of an odd number of members, with a minimum of 5. Councils can be created to manage a geographical area, such as a state, county, or city, or for a topical purpose, for example, medical oversight. Each council has the ability to create lower councils that report to it, but only within the purview of the parent council. For example, a State Council can create a Municipal Council for a city within the state.

    Sitting at the top of the entire structure is the Prime Council, which always consists of exactly 11 members. Decisions of the Prime Council are final except in the case of a supermajority overrule as detailed below.

    Lower councils are subject to the decisions of higher councils with one exception - a parent council’s ruling can be overturned and vacated if a supermajority* of child councils that existed at the time of the ruling vote to overturn it. For example, if a State Council outlaws gambling, but 75% of Municipal Councils vote to vacate the ruling, it is overturned. But, for example, if a Municipal Council votes to allow prostitution, the state or national council can overturn that ruling on its own. Again, however, this overturning can be overridden by a supermajority of child councils. However, the chain ends there. A parent council CANNOT vacate a supermajority vote passed by the collected child councils. Child councils must have a reason for existing can cannot be created simply to stack a supermajority vote.

    A singular case can only be tackled by ONE council at a time and cannot be interfered with during the proceedings by any other council at any other level. For example, if a Municipal Traffic Council is considering a motion to raise a speed limit on a road, no other council (Municipal, State, or even the Prime Council) can interfere in that case or tell the lower council how to rule on it. However, once the case is complete and the ruling announced, THEN a higher council may take up the issue and/or vacate the lower council’s ruling.

    Decisions of lower councils can be appealed, but a parent council has no obligation to take up the issue and can simply deny the appeal.

    Courts

    Courts, as we understand them, do not exist in this system, per se. Civil and criminal cases are handled in the same way; there is no separation between the case types. Likewise, there is no differentiation between the natures of the decisions that can be handed down. Every court case is presided over by a council created especially for the purpose of hearing this single case. All the other rules surrounding how councils work detailed the Councils section still apply.

    The Lottery

    Council members are selected by lottery from all eligible citizens. Each lottery is specific to the seat being filled. To be considered eligible for a given lottery, a citizen:

    • Must be a member of the geographical area that the seat’s council represents. For example, if the seat is on a Municipal Planning Council, the citizen must live within the city.

    • Must meet the qualifications defined by the higher council when this council was created. In this case, perhaps, qualification requires that the citizen hold a bachelor of science degree in any subject.

    • Must NOT have previously served on this same council.

    • Must NOT have been declared unfit for service by a medical professional.

    All citizens of legal age are automatically in the lottery pool by default, and the lottery operates on on opt-out basis.

    If a citizen is chosen for a council, they have the option of declining the position. In which case, another eligible citizen is selected.

    Additionally, a citizen can elect to be removed from the lottery pool for any or no reason for one year at a time. This election can be renewed indefinitely, but it must be renewed UNLESS a medical professional declares that they are unfit for service. An unfit-for-service declaration can be made for a specific amount of time or on a permanent basis.

    Antagonistic Resignation

    Any council member can resign their position on a council at any time before their term is over. In addition, a council member may enact the right of “Antagonistic Resignation” whereby they remove both themself and ONE other member of the council. There is no veto or override process allowed. To clarify, any council member can remove any other member from the same council by also removing themself at the same time. The replacement council member(s) will be chosen via the lottery.

    Antagonistic Recusement

    A council member MAY NOT vote on or interfere with the vote on any issue the results of which they may directly benefit from. That is to say that if a council member could personally benefit from a decision on a matter, they are REQUIRED to recuse themself from the case and may not interfere with the case in any way, including but not limited to public discussion or press releases related to the matter.

    A council member with a conflicting interest in a single case must either resign from the council or recuse themself from the case. As with Antagonistic Resignation, the recusing council member chooses ONE other council member that must also recuse themself from the case to preserve the odd number of council seats. Again, there is no veto or override process allowed. However, unlike Antagonistic Resignation, the recusing council member MUST choose one other member for recusement - they do not get the option to decline. If the number of active seats on the council would drop below five for this single issue, interim seats will be created and filled by lottery for this specific case only, after which the additional seats will be removed from the council and the interim council members’ terms will be considered complete.

    Protection and Compensation

    Serving on a council is a full-time job and may require taking a sabbatical from work. While an individual citizen has the ability to decline a council seat, NO other entity, individual, or organization may punish or otherwise act against a citizen for choosing to accept the responsibility of service. Therefore, it is considered unconstitutional for any entity to retaliate against a citizen for accepting a council seat, punishable by a fine of not less than 50% of that entity’s yearly income. It is understood that this is a harsh penalty, and the severity and calamitous nature of it is intentional and intended to avoid even the outward appearance of impropriety or retaliation. If a citizen CHOOSES of their own accord to decline a council seat out of a sense of duty to an organization, that’s allowed, but it is absolutely not acceptable for an organization to demand, tell, ask, or even imply that a seat should be declined.

    It is required by law that an employee (and this shall be construed loosely, to include any person who is in any way a member of an organization) of an organization be reinstated at the end of their council service to their same position, pay, benefits, and tenure as though no sabbatical had been taken at all. This is inclusive of any required “re-onboarding” time.

    Council members shall be paid the greater of 125% of their reported yearly income or 200% of the average salary of the relevant lottery eligibility pool. This shall be to incentivize citizens to fulfill their duty and serve on a council.

    Councilar No-Confidence

    At any time, the citizens may petition a geographical council (Prime, State, County, Municipal, etc) for a status of Councilar No-Confidence. This petition shall require the signatures of 55% of the individual citizens of the geographical area represented. Upon submission of a completed petition, the council will be dissolved, and a new council will be chosen by lottery according to all the requirements for the council being replaced. This action is automatic and cannot be vetoed or overruled.

    Branch No-Confidence (The Nuclear Option)

    If instead, the No-Confidence petition contains the signatures of 75% of the individual citizens of the geographical area represented, the council and ALL LOWER COUNCILS created by it, directly or indirectly, are dissolved and replaced as above. This is akin to pruning a branch from a tree - every branch and leaf connected to the branch is also removed. Note that this applies to EVERY level of the system, so a No-Confidence petition signed by 75% of the citizens of the entire country and submitted to the Prime Council results in the entire system being wiped away and reset.

    It went a lot deeper than that, but I’ve already typed a LOT and think this mostly gets the gist of it.#

    • Meltrax@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      This is fascinating. I have no doubt you had to debate this a lot and are already aware of some of the shortcomings of the system you created, but in general I really like this idea. Antagonistic Resignation is especially great.

      Basically game-theory everything because it’s always safe to assume that there will eventually be a bad actor and that bad actor will extort loopholes found.

      • LrdThndr@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        It’s been 15ish years since that polysci class. The project assigned a geographical location on a fictional continent, and other class members’ countries were on the same continent.

        The final work required a fully written constitution, a history outlining relations with other student’s countries, a flag, and a travel brochure.

        As I recall, I did get an A on the project.

      • LrdThndr@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        There would still be things like police departments, federal bureaus, etc; all managed by… you guessed it: a council.

        I had more details fleshed out, but this was 15 years ago and some details have been lost to time.

  • MagicShel@programming.dev
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    4 months ago

    I think anyone who wants to lead a country or hold office should be forbidden from it. Figure out some qualifications to disqualify anyone truly unfit to lead and have a lottery for everyone else. Maybe give out extra entries for volunteering or other public service, but make the process uncorruptable.

    Then at the end of their term everyone gets to vote on how good a job they did. Maybe execute or imprison anyone who gets a bad enough score. If you get high enough, you get a nice pension and favorable mentions in history books. Either way, no one is eligible to be picked again. They could advise the next administration if everyone agreed.

    I can think of a hundred ways this could go badly, but I’m not sure the result would be any worse than what we’ve got.

    • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      and have a lottery for everyone else.

      Man I hate being the head of budget and finance for the city…

      Then at the end of their term everyone gets to vote on how good a job they did. Maybe execute or imprison anyone who gets a bad enough score.

      Fuck…

      • MagicShel@programming.dev
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        4 months ago

        I’m not really a fan of execution. It would be a shame if that happened in any but the worst cases. Just trying to motivate doing one’s best. Maybe you only need the carrot and not the stick.

  • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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    4 months ago

    Lottocracy was a concept introduced to me by Vsauce. Imagine court cases but instead of voting guilty or not guilty the jury decides to pass a law or not.

  • TexMexBazooka@lemm.ee
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    4 months ago

    Everyone listens to me and gives me things. I eventually get shot in the face which causes societal collapse. Or something.

  • teawrecks@sopuli.xyz
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    4 months ago

    We need a wavey system that is designed to self-correct between the extremes of free-market capitalism and authoritarian communism. Both extremes have their downsides, just instead of using a war or bloodshed to trigger a bounce back in the other direction the way we normally do it, we just build it into the system. I expect that it would usually hover near the middle, a sort of democratic socialism.

    When resources are plentiful and the economy is strong, we tip toward a free-er market where taxes are lower, regulations are less strict, the market can have its natural ebbs and flows, and risk takers can enjoy their wins (and losses); conversely, when resources are tighter and inequality begins rising, we rein things in, tax more heavily, reinstate certain regulations, and make sure we’re directing the wealth we’ve generated toward those who need help. A sort of exploration/exploitation feedback loop.

    We’ll never find ourselves surprised by a sudden economic shift with no plan in place, and several parties all pulling in different directions trying to vote for their own interests; instead we’ve all already agreed decades ahead of time on what we would do for the good of the country when anyone is in need, and we would quantify exactly what needs to improve before we start shifting back the other way. No one should ever have the sensationalist response of, “this is it, the country is going to be ruined forever by these new policies,” but rather, “this may not be ideal for me right now, but I feel my needs are met, and I understand who we’re doing it for, why, and for how long”.

  • Björn Tantau@swg-empire.de
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    4 months ago

    Test driven politics. Every law must be accompanied by an objective goal that can be measured. The test must be evaluated after x years. If the goal was not achieved the law must be changed.

    • Elise@beehaw.org
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      4 months ago

      That’s interesting. Can you elaborate?

      It makes me think of why the trains in the NL are always on time. The company gets massive subsidies if they are above 95% punctual, so if they go below, that means less pay for the management.

    • Kacarott@aussie.zone
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      4 months ago

      I like this, but I think that the goal to be tested must be a set of tests which are agreed upon by a large majority, not just the current party in power. That way there can be tests as to how effective the law is, but also tests whether it is having other unwanted side effects.

    • yes_this_time@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      A lot of things of value are very hard to measure.

      X degree influences can be very hard to measure.

      You may hit your target metric, but secondary effects may be making the whole system worse.

      Ideally you could A/B a parallel universe to isolate your specifc change, but that is challenging.

  • CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work
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    4 months ago

    Semi-liquid democracy plus confederalism. The votes that delegates bring are multiplied by some function of the votes assigned to them as well as the soldiers and funding they commit.

  • ClassifiedPancake@discuss.tchncs.de
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    4 months ago

    I haven’t put much thought into it but I recently had this idea that we do not vote for a party that runs the whole government for a few years anymore. Instead we vote project based. That way a whole party can’t ruin everything and they can each do what they are best at.

    For that to work, voting needs to be much more convenient somehow because it would happen many times a year.

    Projects would be proposed by the parties to an independent board that will organize and validate them and make them available to the public to be voted on, like petitions. Before it starts, details can be sorted out or changed publicly.

    After a project is done (or after a specified time) there will be a public retrospective on how things went and maybe it will continue or not.

    I’m not sure if/how that would work. I guess there needs to be some kind of long running government with one representative that people can point to? Maybe not?

    My hope is also the different parties (and citizens) would be less hostile to each other and actually work on things because they don’t have to fear the next big election.

    It could also mean there are more disasters like Brexit.

    Anyways, this idea is just fresh in my mind and not fully fleshed out.

  • Septimaeus@infosec.pub
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    4 months ago

    Superfederal Katamari

    This one is a bit more niche. It’s a short-term revolutionary organizational strategy that would aim to provide a representative framework via distributed fractional shareholding in order to (1) legally seize private capital from a hostile oligarchy, (2) operates a de facto interim government in a post-capitalist/dystopian context.

    It would be used as a last ditch effort in lieu of more traditional forms of organization like trade unions and grassroots politics when these have failed. The point would be expediency, to sidestep the immediate need for massive government deposition, restructuring, and/or bloodshed. The key mechanics are of market capture and federalist self-organization.

    Market capture apparatus Workers would commandeer the overpowered institutional machinery of modern-day corporatocracy by staging a rapid campaign of mechanized corporate raiding. This would entail using vastly superior numbers to devalue then “eat” corporate entities of increasing capitalization. While this type of raiding would normally face hyperbolic friction due to market efficiency, successful collective action should ignore these effects almost entirely.

    Super federalist apparatus The legal tools available for modern corporate organization are extensive and flexible, and crafting democratic and representative structures within these private organizations can and should begin immediately, while market capture is underway. At the outset, however, initial articles of the umbrella (federal) corp would need to be carefully written to strictly enforce the distribution of voting shares. Since aberrant internal power fluctuation would capsize the project and return capital to the free market.

    Purpose: Once majority (or total) market capture is achieved, such that the bulk of the economy is technically owned by the umbrella cooperative (the people), the economic takeover would be sufficient to develop a more sensible government without the corruption/interference of the “invisible hand.” It should be much easier to do so after the antagonistic forces of free market capital have been neutralized.

    Antitrust: Of course, we are talking about a monolithic transient organization, well beyond the typical monopoly, but the fact that the shareholder base includes all active participants of an economy makes government intervention improbable, and regardless our institutional antitrust measures are demonstrably toothless. Ultimately this revolutionary cooperative should be replaced, because a sensible government designed for the people would ultimately be a more appropriate longterm solution than an adhoc public entity functioning as a superfederalist government.

  • gibmiser@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    Part of one - inflationary tax. Eliminate most all forms of tax. Instead only way to fund anything is to print money.

    Money earned through criminal enterprise, once found is taken and “destroyed” (excluding damages to victims).

    Negatives that go punished reduce inflation and benefit everyone.

    This is a regressive tax so it would require a very assertive socialist support system with liberal spending on jobs and education for poor folks.

    No tax breaks for big companies because no taxes. There is no such thing as a balanced budget since there is no revenue, only things we decide are worth paying for.

    Would require regular currency adjustments. Still haven’t figured that part out yet. Maybe every 10 years decide how many zeros to take off everyone’s money and have a process for upgrading paper currency while most will be handled through banks.

  • thenextguy@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    Everyone must serve. No elections. Every position has a term limit. The current administration is responsible to select their replacements via a double blind selection process that only provides information relevant to experience and knowledge, capabilities.

    • viking@infosec.pub
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      4 months ago

      Sounds pretty much like a Technocracy, with the double blind bit to reduce selection bias. Not a bad idea.

      • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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        4 months ago

        Double blind is great in science where a finite and known set of variables are being tested.

        Real life policy-making does not have the benefit of involving a finite and known set of variables.

        Generally speaking, I think it’s important to understand the distinction between a logical calculation of a finite (hence calculable) system, versus the phenomenological reality of navigation in the world, which by its nature always involves more information than one can be capable of articulating.

        Sorry if that sounds eggheadish. I don’t know how to say it otherwise without expanding it into a huge wall of text.

        Beyond the known and articulated, there is the known and unarticulated. For example “How to make cookies” can be conveyed in finite words (a recipe), but “How to catch a baseball” can be conveyed only through practice.

        Systems such as you’re describing are good for handling articulated competency, such as the cookie recipe. But I fear that “making good decisions about what to do” isn’t something that can be conveyed merely in words.

        This seems to me to be related to the idea of a “double blind” scenario, in that in order to “blind” the parties one needs to know what information is valid to consider and what information isn’t.