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To me, the scene that most defined what the Jedi order had become and why it needed to end was at the big fight scene at the end of Attack of the Clones where Yoda and Dooku were dueling. When Dooku pulled a pillar down with the Force and then Yoda used the Force to catch it to prevent it from falling on to Obi-wan. He then made a spectacle of it by spinning it around before throwing it back at Dooku. What he should have done was just use the Force to move Obi-wan and Anakin to a safe position and continued to pursue Dooku. That scene just demonstrated how full of himself Yoda had become. And it took until his duel with Palpatine before he realized that he was a large part of what had gone wrong with the Jedi order. I also always felt that he intentionally withheld a lot of information about the Jedi order from Luke in order to prevent him from rebuilding a similar system.
High acceleration has… undesirable effects, let’s say, on a sack of meat and bones. “Space magic”, sure, but I’d argue that in a high-stress situation like the middle of a fight it’d be a lot less risky to move the pillar. If you fuck up calculating how much force (lol) to use, you might end up with Obi-Was instead.
I have a really hard time separating a character’s decisions and the director/cinematographer decisions
Like, did Yoda do that or did someone decide he would do that because test audiences thought it looked cooler (or something like that). I hope I conveyed that properly
Aren’t the director’s decisions basically the same as the character’s? I mean, they’re fictional so the only insight into their character is what we’re shown by the media (i.e. the director’s choices).
Sure, but it’s one thing to think “Yoda was full of himself” and another to think “director wanted a cool looking fight”. They’re basically saying you shouldn’t analyze the thing too much because there wasn’t THAT much thought put into it. Not every move had the character’s thoughts and feelings taken into consideration.
You mean to say that fantasy characters don’t have a fully fleshed out character like real life people do?
I’m shocked I say
I think you conveyed it excellently - not solely because it was the exact thought I had. I would have used more clumsy wording though.
I don’t remember the scene exactly. But it might be that the pillar was falling fast enough that he couldn’t move them (or it would be risky). Moving the pillar was way safer.
Regardless, he takes it and starts spinning it around before throwing it which was entirely unnecessary and only for show. He could’ve just as easily deflected it to a safer location.
This is essentially Arcane’s Heimerdinger.
The Council needed age limits and term limits.
Yoda’s husband Paul was investigated for insider trading because of some extremely well timed trades just prior to battles with the empire.
Damn that’s some crooked lore.
This is why I will always argue that world-building-wise, the prequels and BBY are generally more interesting, because they create a more nuanced view of the politics of the Galactic Republic.
The actual plots of episodes 1,2&3 leave much to be desired, but to me, there’s a reason why Andor is so compelling compared to the Mandalorian, it’s the politics.
Anyone who thinks politics don’t belong in a Star Wars movie isn’t really into fantasy, which Star Wars most certainly is.
Nek Minit they’ll say game of thrones, lord of the rings, the expanse, Avatar the Last Airbender etc (in my opinion some of the greatest fantasy/sci-fi of all time) shouldn’t have so much politics.
Like… that’s what fantasy is. Politics, human relationships and how people live and struggle against each other for their interests, in a fictional world with different rules/physics/history.
The Star Wars Sequels are trash because they neither have a good plot, nor good world building.
The Jedi were complicit in the corruption and injustice of the Galactic Republic, no doubt, and is great world-building, if you ask me.
This is why Dooku made a shitty Sith. His underlying reasons were just, but didn’t stop to think about who he was hooking up with. He’s ultimately a tragic figure of someone who meant well and fucked it up.
Sith ethos doesn’t work like that. It’s a self-centered philosophy; you gain power for the sake of doing what you please. Palatine was never going to have Dooku as an apprentice long term.
Anakin’s reasons were selfish. His relationship with Padme was always toxic, immature, and selfish. Him wanting to save her was fundamentally selfish. It wasn’t for her sake as a person apart from Anakin. That’s exactly the kind of behavior the Sith philosophy encourages.
He’s more of a Gray Jedi
Putting the right guy in power never worked historically since power corrupts. The power structure is the problem. That’s one of the core ideas of anarchism
It’s also one of the main ideas behind the American constitution but we try to regulate power with checks and balances but because it’s kinda hard to understand having multiple leaders that rule over different parts of the government and make sure no one gets corrupt people over time seem to have only given a shit about who is in charge of the military and now we have presidents that can effect normal citizens by enacting laws and are unanimously considered our leader
I mean, it has worked historically, just extremely rarely. Singapore was one such recent example.
The issue is that people die and the next person usually fucks everything up again.
Anarchy has similar issues.
The real problem is just us; humans.
That’s the next core idea: power structures attract the wrong people. Take Stalin who was worse than Lenin. Lenin had benevolent ideas but got corrupted, Stalin took that position with bad intentions from the start.
Fatalism only serves the status quo.
It’s not fatalism, but fact. Humans are the real issue. We weren’t biologically evolved to deal with such large groups, along with certain other DNA quirks.
That said, with technology and/or time such a flaw could be fixed so that we either are able to overcome our biological shortcomings, and/or technology allows us to achieve structure without hierarchy while also preventing hierarchy from springing up as well.
I don’t even know where to start. At least understand that this is beyond the realm of facts. And there is a reason, anarchists try to keep things on low levels, in small groups, as far as possible and build “communities of communities” bottom up. I don’t understand how technology is supposed to help there but there are structures that prevent hierarchies already.
It helps with self sustainability, communication, lowering costs of needs, efficiency, etc.
Renewables for example decrease the reliance on government significantly for example.
Wasn’t a big part of the Jedis’ problem their standoffishness?
Far from wielding power, they played at peacemaker and diplomat long after open war had erupted, resorted to questionably sourced mercenaries to do their dirty work, and relied enormously on prophecy to save them without properly understanding what it implied.
“Too Little, Too Late” might as well have been the motto of the late Jedi Order.
The power structure is the problem.
The lack of structure was a recurring problem for The Old Republic and the Jedi Order. The Trade Federation’s greed went unchecked early on, because the Jedi-as-space-cops presented no material threat. The Senate routinely dithered in the face of adversity, as it was easily subverted by staling tactics and backstabbing. No standing military meant a reliance on an assortment of killer robots, mercenaries, clones, and bureaucrats-turned-shock-troops, none of whom proved to be particularly reliable.
Far from “power corrupts” as the theme of the Prequels, I might argue the real moral was “power abhors a vacuum”. If you’re not willing to occupy the center of political gravity, someone else will.
I read the text before even looking at the bottom picture and then realized I was making literally the exact same face lol perfect
I’m convinced that Count Dooku was a character quickly shoehorned in as a villain when the filmmakers got pushback from execs for having Jar Jar Binks as the actual Sith Lord (with Palpatine merely being the Apprentice).
Man, I really wish that all went somewhere.
Sexy padme and sexy Obi-Wan
Somewhat redeeming
What execs? The Prequels are basically the highest budget indie film project ever. Lucas had total financial and creative control.
Not execs, read the OP. The theory is GL got scared of fan reactions to jarjar so he didn’t want to make jarjar that central.
Don’t quote the old magic to me @hyperhopper, I was there when it was written.
It’s a fun fan theory, up there with Chewie/R2 being secret leaders of the rebellion and pre-prequel theories about “what actually are the clone wars”, but it relies on George Lucas being incredibly subtle in a trilogy where every other metaphor is written on giant billboards with spotlights on them. I mean the whole thing is a setup to “Jar Jar is Snoke”.
There were similar rumors that Lucas had the entire sequel/prequel trilogies planned out at the end of RotJ from the mid 80s until the prequels came out. Down to the EU books/comics (which he famously doesn’t care about) being Lucas’ plan all along. It was just “the man” keeping him from making the movies. That the man didn’t stop him making the original Star Wars before he was an extremely famous extremely wealthy movie maker was handwaved away.
It’s the fun logic hoop fan version of “No Trump/Musk is actually playing 7D chess! What he actually meant was…”
I did a rewatch of the prequels just to show a friend all the Darth Jar Jar evidence that never comes to fruition. We were robbed of a better experience.
I never noticed but, is he pouring wine over ice?
There are a some type of wines that you can enjoy on ice during summer in France. So nothing too alarming here. But don’t do that with a Pomerol or I’ll chop your head myself.
I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. Could be sangria.
Tales of the Jedi did a really good job fleshing Dooku out. many star wars villains are unambigiously evil- that’s what happens when dark wizardry is very real and a viable career path i guess- but Dooku really thought he was doing the right thing at first, like a more selfless Anakin. a lot of Star Wars media does a great job illustrating that the Republic and the Jedi were deeply flawed, but don’t make the jump to saying that many if not most planets joined the CIS in good faith for that reason- i guess because the new non-droids we see in the CIS are all asshats or aforementioned evil wizards, but still! the fight against the republic and the rebellion against the empire were essentially the same conflict from a certain point of view…
There’s a really good moment in “The Solitary Clone” in the Bad Batch where Cody and his squad reassure a separatist child that they’re here to help before the child’s mother pulls him inside and shuts the door. To me it really illustrates how to the average separatist the republic was always a kind of oppressive empire.
I am just coming from a thread discussing voting for Biden or not is okay under the current circumstances. Reality meets fiction.
This is a big reason why I personally like episodes 1-3 more than 4-6. It’s just more interesting because neither side is 100% good or 100% bad, and there’s a couple times where you’re like “wait, the bad guy actually has a point”, or “are the good guys really doing the right thing here?”. That sort of conflict makes for much better storytelling and more interesting characters, especially when compared to the run-of-the-mill hero’s journey story and characters in 4-6.
One set of assholes talking trash about another set of assholes. Neither completely evil or completely good.
Sith are just The Satanic Temple with cool glowing sticks
I think not. I’ve never hear of the Satanic Temple rolling into a Sunday School and slaughtering all the children.
You’re just believing Satanic lies. The truth is right there in Jack Chick comics!
What is that from?
Tried googling some key phrases and just came across a comment about it being from the Clone Wars novelization. I’m not sure which book that would be though.
Star Wars The Clone Wars by Karen Travis
Chapter 9
The quote being anti-Jedi pretty much gave away the author
God I wish she’d finished the republic/imperial commando series. The only reason i dont read it once every year is because it hurts too much to know that theres no new book to round it out and complete it.
At least we got a summary how it was supposed to end. And from people at LucasArts we learned how Sev’s story would have continued.
“You know what would be really interesting to do? Don’t denounce me as a Stalinist but, for example – it’s my old temptation – to rewrote Star Wars… presenting Palpatine and Darth Vader as good progressive egalitarian centralist fighting reactionary feudalist, all the Jedi bullshit. It would tell a completely different story, from the others point. What do they [Jedi] stand for? All that, ‘Republic’, what strange of Republic is when you have a Princess Leila, knights, kings and so on? No, Palpatine the Emperor and Darth Vader, they are - my god - progressive Bonapartist revolutionaries trying to get rid of the old world.”
From: Žižek on Reshooting Star Wars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_DroaGggbc
Agreed but I did sometimes wonder what the ideal galaxy would look like to the rebels? Obviously it’s a fictional world, and they wouldn’t all hypothetically agree anyway, but would it be regressive or progressive?
Disclaimer: I don’t know a lot about Star wars
I think the pre-sequel shows have done a great job of showing the New Republic as a feckless liberal state too afraid to make any actual change. They are too distracted with trying to distance themselves from the Empire with incomprehensible amounts of bureaucracy and trying to reform Imperial Agents. The New Republic is so wrapped up with appearing to be the good guys that they neglect the citizens of the galaxy amd just let everything rot.
I don’t want more crazy political views
But tbh I think that if we take the original trilogy, the Rebels are cleary fighting a reactionary imperialist power, ie. an analogy to the Vietnam war
Lucas was very explicit that this was always the intent. It’s not reallt subtle honestly, asymmetric jungle freedom fighters fighting wealthy imperialist?
As ive grown older i find myself disagreeing more and more with the jedi whom as a child i idolised as paragons of good. But palpatine, vader, and the empire are so many things before being “poor good revolutionaries” trying to take down the status quo simply from the good of their golden hearts. Theres always more than 2 choices people :)
Andor did a good job of not giving a shit about the Jedi and also showing how terrible the fascist empire was. The whole prison episodes were really amazing.
Tap for spoiler
And all those prisoners for some hinges in the Death Star cannon.
And yet, people trashed The Last Jedi for leaning this direction 🤷🏽
People trashed Last Jedi for everything but that. That was the one highlight and people were upset it wasn’t followed up on in Rise of Skywalker.
Maybe in your circles but I heard and read plenty complaining about Luke casting aside the old ways
I fully agree. The last Jedi was a joyless cash grab but at least they got the theme set right.
…people were upset it wasn’t followed up on in Rise of Skywalker.
Fair warning, I am coming at this as a fan of TLJ who found it really worked for me after falling in love with Star Wars as a little kid in 1983, but one of the great sins of TROS is exactly that.
Every movie before that had its retcons, sometimes pretty significant, but no movie simply rolled back the previous one or refused to engage with it like TROS did. I’ve been forced to accept that there is pretty significant contingent who didn’t connect with TLJ like I did, but Disney and JJ took absolutely the wrong lesson from the backlash in how they responded. The fans who care that deeply view an installment they don’t care for as an annoying relative, but one one to be addressed, rehabilitated if possible, explained if not. Dave Filoni built his entire career on this.
