Ah, uncle Iroh, everyone’s favorite barely reformed war criminal.
What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?
The first one is better. The second one is more impressive.
True
~Mario, 2011
Yes.
This is why there’s that trope where the bad guy gets killed in the process of, or just after, getting redeemed. So the story can have its cake and not have to deal with any of the icky justice afterwards. How jarring would it be to have the bad guy turn around, save the day, and then the heroes still kill them or drag them off to a trial for their crimes? So justice has to be meted out by fate rather than having to complicate our heroes.
How jarring would it be to have the bad guy turn around, save the day, and then the heroes still kill them or drag them off to a trial for their crimes?
I’d love to see that in a story!
RDR2 in a nutshell
I read that as R2D2 and was just like “…wut”
I read that as R2D2, accepted the crimes, but was trying to figure out when the hell he was put on trial for them
Dude burned battledroids alive.
How many planets did Vegeta destroy that we didn’t see? We saw that one that was such a casual fucking thing for him.
Even after he turned good, he was still willing to kill a stadium full of people to get Kakarot to fight him. He acted like he was under control of the Majin spell but only went along with it until they started acting superior to him, then was just like, “nah, I just want to fight Kakarot because I’ve been training very hard and he’s usually dead these days and I miss fighting with my buddy but don’t tell anyone I called him my buddy, and I thought pretending to be under your control would get him to fight me, but I’m not going to bow to you or any of that shit.”
Though I can’t remember if he actually did kill some of them or if he just did an attack he knew Goku would stop, which would affect how evil the ruse was.
He killed those people. I guess you could argue since he knows about the dragon balls that they could wish them back after, but he still straight up killed them to get goku to fight.
Tbh I don’t think vegeta really was a good guy until he fought kid buu. He was pacified sure and maybe even on the path to being good, but that was because his target was gone and to his knowledge was never coming back. That’s why I love his turn to majin so much. It’s a hardcore backslide because his target came back and if it wasn’t for that he never would have realized how much everything on earth actually meant to him.
I don’t consider him good after going for fat buu because he wasn’t being selfless yet. Him + goku could have taken buu on but he felt like HE needed to be the one to finish the job. His sacrifice was hollow since it (despite what he said) was for him. If it really was for everyone he would have let goku join to guarantee a win.
It wasn’t until he fought kid buu that he was actually being selfless. He let himself get wailed on so goku could charge up knowing he both stood no chance and could potentially be permanently erased since he was already dead. The “you are number one” speech is the conclusion to his story and his redemption.
This became a bit of a ramble but I love Vegeta’s story and could probably keep going if I had the time
Yeah, Vegeta is ambiguously good/evil but makes the story better by being in it regardless.
Kinda like Piccolo, who clearly stated at the start of DBZ that he still intended to take over the world once he was powerful enough to defeat Goku and they were only joining forces because neither wanted the saiyans to destroy the planet, but then somewhere along the way he changed his mind, probably because of his bond with Gohan.
It’s especially interesting in Piccolo’s case IMO because he was basically born evil as a reincarnation of his father, never having a choice in the matter. It wasn’t until Gohan came along and treated him as anything but a monster that he began to realize he had a choice.
Piccolo with baby Pan in super was one of the most wholesome moments in the entire series. Especially when Goku shows up to relieve him from babysitting and he explains a bunch of stuff to a half listening Goku and then ends up just staying because he doesn’t trust Goku to remember any of it.
well hold on now, maybe that was just trauma from being short
And being born with a widow’s peak
I mean if the villain’s redemption is well written then typically the guilt from their past actions is the punishment for said actions, and their current actions are largely focused on atonement and reparation. That sort of thing often makes them even more relatable because while not everyone has killed another person, everyone in the world has hurt someone else at some point, maybe unintentionally, maybe unknowingly, maybe due to extenuating circumstances or their own trauma, or maybe because they were just a worse person at the time. Does that mean they are never allowed to be a better person and must eternally suffer for all the wrongs they’ve committed? Is it not better to encourage their goodness in the present than to forcibly drag them back to when they were bad over and over again for the sake of vindication? Does society really benefit from that sort of thing? And what if they end up saving more lives than they’ve taken? Something to think about.
Wait not everyone has killed someone?
It’s got to be better to encourage people to be better and allow them to have a chance to change.
A good percentage of my novel (WIP, third draft) is about that. It takes place in this space age afterlife where objective and good space angels categorize and separate people by the development of their consciences. And the villains’ activist group is in the self-righteous category, and they don’t believe in the forgiveness and redemption of many kinds of people. The two main antagonists are a husband-and-wife duo, and the husband is bitter from tragedy after being one of the earliest fighters for womens’ votes in the US on Earth. He ends up coming to terms with the harm he’s now caused in the afterlife in the name of revenge against wrongdoers; and then the protagonists convince him that he too has the right to atone by being— and by doing— better.
Admittedly, since in this universe people can be reincarnated indefinitely, the harm that people cause (whether back on Earth or in this afterlife) is softened. As an interesting bonus, though, I will say that the villains did seize the means of reincarnation and start deciding who gets to be reincarnated— until the protagonists win, of course.
Also also, that theme is just like a quarter of what the novel has to offer theme-wise. It’s also largely about healing from childhood trauma, mental health tools, identity discovery, found family, and kinder perspectives. Also the space angels are super cool and have interesting science-fantasy powers; and the science and sci-fi stuff is really cool as well! (Yes, I did just devolve into advertising. You would have too!)
deleted by creator
hilarious how this guy became a meme. I hope he earns at least $1 every time someone posts a picture of his trying-so-hard-to-stay-awake face on the internet.
My biggest problem with Fairy Tail.
Never got over Gajeel beating Levy within an inch of her life, then literally crucifying her for the rest of the guild to find.
And then that’s who people start shipping her with?! AND THEN IT BECOMES FUCKING CANON!?
anime fans have a nasty tendency to ship the most absolutely toxic, nonsensical, garbage pairs. That includes the creators.
Japanese entertainment and good ethics don’t really get along. Case in point: Endwalker.
You’re now the second commenter piling on as if this type of thing only happens with anime and anime fans.
Well in real life people change, so it’s weird to call it out as this weird thing that shouldn’t be happening.
I’m perfectly on board with redemption arcs. They can make for some of the best character development.
But Gajeel didn’t change. He didn’t have a redemption arc. His past actions are never confronted in any way whatsoever. His allegiance simply does a 180, and at no point is it even suggested that he has changed or grown as a person.
In fact the series makes a point of him being the “bad boy” of the group, one who is quick to anger, violent and abusive.
And then he’s paired off with one of his past assault victims? Nauseating.
He had one of the required dragon powers they needed didn’t they? Unless I am misremembering they had no option but to work with him, and during that time he did significantly change, although kept the bad boy vibe. He even saved them a few times.
I really don’t see his arc being much different than someone’s like Vegeta.
Did he though? What makes you think that when he flies off the handle, he wouldn’t still beat people to near death and crucify them first, and ask questions later?
Vegeta is slightly better, but not by much. Mostly because his behaviour is somewhat more believable, as long as you’re imaginative enough to make up his off-screen self-improvement process for yourself.
Redemptions need to be earned. They do not work if the author just goes, “they’re a good guy now”.
I need to see the way the character thinks change, in a believable process with logical progress that I can comprehend.
Pulled from the internet, but yes.
One of the best examples of this is Gajeel. After Phantom Lord’s disbandment, he’s sitting alone in silence until Makarov comes and talks to him, asking him who he really wants to be and what he believes his future holds for him. Makarov offers him a place in Fairy Tail, and when Gajeel reminds him he’s the one who attacked and crucified the three guild members, Makarov’s face darkens and he still expresses clear hatred for this crime. Makarov clearly states that he still hasn’t forgiven him for this, but he can’t just let Gajeel wander in darkness and walk down a worse path knowing he could’ve helped him. And when he joins the guild, everyone is immediately hostile. Almost none of them accept him, and Shadow Gear later confront him and begin attacking Gajeel, until Laxus joins in and blasts him with lightning. But Gajeel accepts this punishment and does nothing to defend himself, allowing them to get their anger out. Here, he acknowledges his crimes and has to make a genuine effort to redeem himself, which he does in the following arcs.
Sometimes you need to read a little between the lines and look at how they do act differently, but similarly. It’s there, you can also choose to see that they haven’t changed, that’s the great thing about narratives, leaves a lot to interpretation.
deleted by creator
What’s wrong with showing that people can be redeemed and change their ways?
Isn’t that the whole point of the courts and jail systems IRL in the end? It’s wild that people can’t handle something that’s quite honestly how humans should be. Why are people so afraid to accept people can and do change, it’s human nature to even. People who don’t change are the outliers.
deleted by creator
Also, you’re incredibly naïve if you think jail is meant to be reformative.
You must be American? It works elsewhere pretty damn well with very low reincarnation rates, can’t say the same in places where it’s a business instead. It’s also a problem when people steal some bread just to get themselves off the street for a couple nights with a guaranteed meal……
This is also more about the meme in general than the specific Fairy Tale case, but to think that no one deserves redemption is just frankly an extremely shitty way of thinking.
deleted by creator
It’s more why get hung up on a specific example? Vegeta did far worse and yet he’s a fan favorite, so why is Gajeel so bad?
Also, as I stated it’s more to do with the meme than the specific case someone brought up, everyone can be deserving of redemption, not everyone will agree obviously, but to say that some people don’t deserve it only speaks volumes of your character.
deleted by creator
Remember kids, it’s easier to get forgiveness than permission.
That’s my motto at work
This is why I like the Halo expanded lore. There’s a lot of guilt and grudges when it comes to Thel Vadam in Halo. Dude led fleets that killed millions of humans. He just accepts that he’ll never make up for it, no matter how much good he does for humanity after the war.
It also goes into how, even though he was manipulated by the Covenant, he’ll never stop feeling guilty. But he’s the only Sangheili leader that is 100% devoted to peace with the humans, so most humans aren’t willing to take a shot at revenge.
Reminds me of Sylar from Heros. Man killed a lot of people. Like, a lot. If memory serves, he became a “hero” in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.
Helped a lot that he’s hot.
deleted by creator
Leaf village be like “Welcome back to the village Sasuke Uchiha, man who was a member of three different terrorist organisations, attempted to assassinate every world leader at once, and was complicit in the kidnapping, experimentation, and murder of children for several years! We’re all weirdly ok with this.”
Just use the Dragonballs to revive them
So, from a meta perspective, no real people died or were harmed. And the things real people get from a story are not a direct one to one analog to what goes on in a story.
Stories let people process things without actually having to participate in them. The fictional characters are not real. The person reading is, and generally filters what they read through a lifetime of experiences, picking and choosing what to integrate into themselves. Watching media or reading books and liking things doesn’t turn you into a bad person simply by exposure.
It’s true a story can spread a dialogue, but acting like someone is a terrible sinner guilty of the most horrifying thought crimes because they like the bad guy in a story isn’t really different in my mind that someone religious peddling nonsense like you’ll go to hell if you merely think a thought that isn’t in line with a holy book.
I think sometimes people raised in religious homes with all that guilt about thinking sinful things stop going to church, but sort of copy and paste the moral thought crime bullshit onto random things and pick that up as their replacement zealotry because it feels familiar.
I see it happening a lot in discussions of media with darker content.
Agreed 100%. I think it’s a combination of that and a severe lack of media literacy. I don’t know if there’s a real name for it, but what I think of as sort of internet neo-Puritanism is a driving force behind people being extremely uncomfortable with media that isn’t a morality play with clearly delineated good and bad guys, where the bad guys always suffer. Like, we had that, it was called the Hayes Code and it was terrible.
I agree, though I also think there’s a discussion to be had about society’s obsession with punishment over anything else, and how sometimes it’s okay to let go of the past and appreciate that someone has become a better person and is working to attone for that they did and do good things from that point onwards, which is overall better for the world as a whole than them being forced to suffer endlessly for their past actions for the sake of vindication or revenge. If you’re going to take the stance that someone can have a moral debt they must be forced to pay, then you have to likewise acknowledge that there must be a point at which it can be paid. If you try to claim that some things can never be made up for and thus some moral debts can never be repaid, then that only highlights the problem with that sort of reasoning. Because if someone takes a life then saves a life, and you claim that one is not enough to make up for the other, then you’re essentially treating life 1 as more valuable than life 2. And what if they take 100 lives but save 1000? Can human lives even be stacked up against each other like that to say which group has more “value” than the other? That’s the paradox of a moral debt, something can not simultaneously be priceless and yet also not hold enough value to balance the scale against itself at the same time.
In real life this can be complicated further because it can be hard to judge whether someone has truly learned from their mistakes and genuinely changed their ways, but in a fictional story you often get to see for sure that the character truly is sincere. So to tie that in to what you said, just because a viewer/reader is capable of accepting a character’s redemption in a fictional setting, where they are 100% certain that the former villain has had a change of heart and feels bad and will continue to do good things into the future, that doesn’t mean it’s a moral failing on the audience’s part. But it’s also worth noting that being willing to give someone a chance to improve themselves and grow as a person instead of demanding their eternal damnation and punishment isn’t a moral failing either even outside of fiction.
Religion isn’t necessary to explain this. I was raised without religion. Most people seem to believe that our actions define who we are. I tend to think that our thoughts are a better indication of our real self, given that our thoughts are less constrained than our actions.
Watching and reading about bad things doesn’t turn you into a bad person by exposure, but if you enjoy torture porn then i’m going to infer that you enjoy thoughts of torture and sought out that which reflects your thoughts and that makes you a bad person in my view.
Feels like there’s a whole other topic you’re trying to get off your chest here.
The village of Nameks that Vegeta massacred, including children. And the planet of bug people he killed on his way to Earth with Nappa.
He didn’t even become actually “good” until after he kills himself. Never atoned AFAIK
Thank you Fred Johnson!
Fred Johnson is such a great character. The Expanse writers absolutely nailed him in the books as he puts everything into atonement with the Belters. I need to read the Fred Johnson short story soon
Fred Johnson immediately got to work investigating the job after it went wrong, and when he was convinced he was working for the wrong side, immediately dedicated himself to working to make amends. He continued to do this for years (decades?) all while making himself a progressively bigger target when just looking the other way from the start would have served him very well. He was never a villain. He just worked with limited information in his backstory. And since then basically everything he does is aimed at the betterment of the belters/humanity. His early victims probably would have forgiven him relatively quickly if they saw what he was doing afterwards and knew the initial setup. They cared about the cause more than their own lives after all.
Reminds me of Negan.
Redemption arc that knocked it out of the park.
This was where my mind went. Dude killed so many people and ended up getting a spinoff series.
